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 Author Thread: Need advice for 10 yr old son and recently absent FATHER?
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 8 (view)
Need advice for 10 yr old son and recently absent FATHER?
Posted: 3/11/2009 9:42:45 AM

My mother told me one day that If I did not feel like going over to see my father then I didn't have to, But for your son I think he should tell his dad that he does not want to go with him because he hurts him treat him badly and whatever.

Exactly. I am (and have been) trying to get our son to talk to his Dad and tell him how he feels. I've explained to him that I, as his Mom, can only do so much and that his Dad REFUSES to believe anything I say....
I'm infuriated that Dad is indirectly putting this pressure on our son, essentially putting him in the situation where he is causing him grief (by leaving and stating his intentions to move permanently) and by forcing him to face him/tell him directly.
IMHO, some ADULTS can't even articulate how they fell, let alone a little boy who just loves his father, and is hurting so much by his Dad not being there anymore.

@super nad

invite the ex over, sit down, do a dinner and go over th concerns. Do that ancient old tradition of talking! Explain to the father, that your son is hurt. That way your son doesn't feel like the bad guy for telling his dad that. What son doesn't look up to their father is some way or another??? But communication, no yelling allowed. Talk about things. No talk about support or ex gf's or bf's. Just a family discussion.

It's gone WAY, WAY, past that possibility. This is a man who has literally wished DEATH on me, to my face and to mutual friends. HE still harbors a visceral HATE towards me for multiple reasons; I essentially kicked him out 7 yrs ago, by refusing to continue to live with a man who didn't love me, constantly went out without me, etc...
I 'got the house', 'got the kid', and 'got child supoort' (well, ordered anyway) HE sees me as the devil.

To this day, SEVEN YEARS later, he still brings up what happened SEVEN YEARS ago, whenever we talk. So, there's no point in even trying to sit down with him. He's completely irrational. (Yes I realize this is MY SIDE of the story) BUT, to enlighten you...we're talking about a Father who wants to MOVE 1500 miles away from his son, because of WARM weather!

This is a man who;

a) Filed for FULL CUSTODY the same day he filed for a REDUCTION in child support (read between the lines) when I've had full physical and legal custody for the last 7 years.
He had no REAL reason for changing the custody arrangement, other than to avoid paying child support, here's why;

b) This is a man who CAN'T EVEN follow the current custody arrangement, whom has NEVER had our son sleepover his place MORE than ONE NIGHT in SEVEN years!
(On 'his weekends', he'd ALWAYS drop our son off HOURS, if not A DAY before the weekend time was ending, his drop off time)

c) This is a man who LEFT, for over 2 months, merely because the weather in Philly is too cold!

d) This is a man who has NOT had a steady job (by employer, or being 'SELF' employed) since we split up, 7 years ago.... and no steady living place (he's lived in an apartment, in Deleware, with his girlfriend in Philly, and now, in Florida = No stability)

e) This is a man, who purchased 'magic mushroom' spores off the Internet, grew them in a sterile container in his apartment, and used them for recreation, all the while letting our 3 yr old son run around the apartment, thereby having access to hallucinogenic drugs... and who saw NO ERROR in this??!!

f) This is a man who refuses to spend ONE single evening or night with his son, without the presence of his girlfriend, despite the fact our son has told him he wants time ALONE with him...who has been told by OUR SON, "Dad, I think you love 'so and so' MORE than you love ME"...and still refuses to believe he may be contributing to that....

g) This is a man who before he left for Florida, already MOVED out of state, 50 MILES away from his son, and then did NOTHING but complain that it was too far of a drive to come pick up our son, drive him back to his own home, for visitation.....citing 'GAS MONEY was too much, and fought with me for NOT DRIVING our son myself, to his home!!

h) This is a man, who has refused to give our son medicine (antibiotics) when he's had strep throat, stating they're 'unnecessary' and 'useless', do nothing but 'make you sicker', who has refused to give our son Tylenol when sick, stating 'he doesn't need it' even when he's had fevers as high as 104.5, if for nothing else than to provide a comfort measure by reducing chills, headache, etc. ...who refused to go to the dentist with our son, when he needed a tooth extracted, because 'Why do I need to go, you're there' despite our son crying that he wanted his Daddy!

There is NO talking to him. I didn't include this before, (to keep the OP short) BUT, Dad was once arrested for something and ordered to go to counseling for anger management...AND, the psychologist who saw him actually DECLINED to continue seeing him, diagnosing him with 'Narcissism' and flat out telling him "I CAN NOT help you, you ARE a Narcissist, you don't even see the need for help, please do NOT return, I'm sorry".

Incidentally, I was married once before and have another son, who's almost 15...HIS Dad and I are able to communicate, agree on matters involving our son, and both act civilly with each other. Yes, we may disagree on some things, but we are able to put any matters or negative feelings we might have for each other aside and put our son's needs first. So, I tend to think it's NOT ME who's at fault for all the contention between my ex-fiance' and I, but HIM...considering that I am able to get along with my ex-husband without any major problems - we share custody, agree easily on schedules, support matters, etc...all matters concerning my 15 yr old, no issues at all, like I have with the ex-fiance'

What do you do with an ex who is completely irrational? As I've described in more detail in this reply?

(Oh, and once he and I talked about a 'mediator'. In fact, HE was the ONE to suggest it and I was 110% willing to do that, BUT, like everything else he does in HIS life, he then changed his mind and REFUSED his own suggestion!!)

Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 1 (view)
Need advice for 10 yr old son and recently absent FATHER?
Posted: 3/10/2009 4:55:09 PM
Hi All,
This is a complicated situation, so I'm going to try and keep it as brief as possible. I have a soon to be 10 yr old son, with my ex-fiance'. Dad and I split back in the summer of '02, at which time he moved out of our house and got an apartment within 10 min of our house.
(at the time, our son was 3 1/2)...for several years after Dad and I split, we were on terms resembling a roller coaster ride, but he always kept in contact with our son. In fact, he would often spend holidays with us, up until our son was about 7 yrs old (3 yrs ago). He used to come over my house, often unannounced, walking right boundaries at all...which I was initially okay with (for our son's sake). Then, in early 2006, it became apparent to me that it was becoming unhealthy for ME, to have my ex-fiance' dropping over all the time, knowing everything about my life, all the while when HE was involved in a serious relationship with another woman. I realized whatever hopes or chances of us getting back together were NEVER going to happen (like a fool, for a long time I had wished we'd get back together) SO, I finally asked him to STOP coming over unannounced and to take our son ALONE WITH HIM, without me being around...basically to follow the court order on visitation. He gave me a very hard time about this....NEVER wanted to follow the order....He just wanted to see our son when HE wanted to see him. (I realize I allowed this initially, but soon realized if it wasn't healthy for me, it would affect our son)
He was always self employed until 07, at which time he got a job paying 60,000/yr, bought a HOUSE himself in DELEWARE and I went to court for support - wage garnishment. (one thing he had NEVER done consistently was pay support, and then he BEGAN to travel the WORLD with his new girlfriend, all the while NOT paying support)
Anyhow, he QUIT his job (stating stress as a cause) and filed for a reduction (got it reduced to half - and is still NOT EVEN PAYING THE HALF!!) AND also filed for FULL CUSTODY...(it's his way of avoiding to pay support)...
Here's the problem. Dad's mom, our son's grandma, died last year. She left her home in FLORIDA (we live IN Pennsylvania) to her 3 kids (my ex included) and Dad left for Florida in January. Our soon to be 10 year old son had his HEART broken when Dad left Dad told son he was going down to sell Grandma's house and also because he hates the cold weather in Philly So, Dad was gone for 2 months, returned to see his girlfriend, and now our son is extremely hurt, and does NOT want to see Dad. Our son is only a kid and is afraid to tell his Dad he doesn't want to go with him, that he's 'mad at him' and upset that he told him he's going back down to Florida to live PERMANENTLY Our son doesn't even want to talk on the phone to him, and yesterday, Dad went to the school (on a NON court appointed day, to pick our son up from school) Our son came to me this morning and told me 'Mom....Dad picked me up yesterday" - our son walks the 1 block home - and "I don't want to go with him".

My questions are;
What do I do? I don't know how to handle this...I called Dad (at our son's begging) and told him 'He doesn't want to go with you, he's hurt, etc'....and there was A LOT of shouting - he blames me, etc....AND I am torn up myself because DAD is accusing me of LYING, POISONING our son's head, etc....and wants to hear it from our son, who is TERRIFIED to talk to Dad!

We are going back to custody court in May, and I had to fire my attorney (now don't have a new one yet) as of last week because of other reasons....

Any ideas? Suggestions? Right now, I'm hating my ex for putting our son in this situation, forcing him to tell him, hurting him by leaving him....a whole myriad of reasons YET I don't want to hurt our son. I want to protect him from his father, who is nothing other than a DEAD BEAT Dad! (both physically and financially)

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to give as much info as possible.
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 4 (view)
Have you been CONTACTED by the SPOUSE of someone you've 'met'?
Posted: 3/9/2009 5:55:44 PM
I can't believe the audacity of some people! trismus, you actually got called by the WIFE on your date! OMG, that is unbelievable!!

What I don't get is; how do these jerks expect that we WON'T find out, and relatively soon, at that! It makes me so angry to be the unsuspecting 'other person' and then have to deal with an angry, upset, hurt spouse or S.O.! I've often felt bad about that person, but also annoyed that I was dragged into something I want no part of....

I've actually had to change my phone number once because of a very, very angry fiance' who was very young to my 35 yr old 'boyfriend' who neglected to tell me he was engaged for a year! (long story) BUT, when a psycho 19 yr old is calling and threatening you, you start to feel a bit annoyed!

What gets me too, peruse for women online leaves a PAPER trail that a spouse or S.O. can find. Why bother?
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 42 (view)
What is the best way to get out of a bad date and turn people down who hit on you?
Posted: 3/9/2009 5:43:36 PM

Second Question: When you are out and someone hits on you, how do you get them to leave you alone. This happens to me a lot. I think it takes a lot of guts to go up to someone you dont know and talk them not knowing what will happen. To be honest, i dont mind compliments and people talking to me, its flattering, but I hate it when some guys dont understand that your NOT interested. I have tried to classic, "I have a Boyfriend" but most guys dont leave you alone after that which is a major turn off. How do you go about turning them down effectively (so they would leave you alone), without being rude or telling any major lies.

Okay, different take here. First, imho, it doesn't necessarily take a lot of guts "to go up to someone you don't know and talk to them not knowing what will happen"

Do you realize what you just said there?? If people in this world had THAT attitude, NO ONE would ever meet each other unless introduced by friends, family, or co-workers.
Imho, that is rather arrogant of you to say....and I don't say this to be mean, just honest.

You are right that it takes a 'lot of guts' but in the wrong context....I think you fail to realize that it takes a lot of courage, esteem, and confidence to approach a woman, in a club. Same goes for women who approach men.
I'm glad that men have THAT courage to come and approach me, because I know myself, I'm often too shy to approach a guy myself. (So, TY to all the men out there who've taken the initiative to make the 'first move')

You stated in one of your replies, you were on a college campus? I'm guessing you're a college student? If so, you've got A LOT to learn girl.....A LOT! (and you should be thankful you ARE approached by men, because there are MANY women out there who pray men would approach them.....) You said it happens 'all the time'? If so, you've got to take a look and see why that is?....If it's just based on your looks (we can't see you to make that assumption) then....get over it, and simply walk away from the man who's suddenly talking to you! How hard is that? I get approached when I go out, almost every time I'm in a club, if not every time...and it's not as complicated as you're making it sound.

Here's how it goes;
1. If a guy starts talking to you and you're NOT interested, you give a small, tiny smile and turn away. If he persists in trying to 'talk' to you, start to physically MOVE away, even if by a few feet.
2. If he doesn't get the hint.....then just walk away . You could find 10 different reasons to walk away. Hm, let's see....go to the bathroom, get some fresh air, go look for your friends, excuse yourself to make a phone call, 'suddenly notice' your 'cousin' across the room, the possibilities are endless!

Come on, now...are you for real? I mean, if this happens to you as you say, all the time, you mean to tell me as a college student you haven't figured out how to stop a guy's interest, with a 'little white lie'?

Your one question of merit, about being followed....that is scary, it's happened to me, as well. There are also multiple ways to avoid that too...but unless it happens to you, you might not realize it...

1. As a previous posters said 'Get the bouncer to help you'..that's what they're there for.
(flash a pretty smile at them, they'll love that...I'm sure if you're being approached by strange men all the time, the bouncers will be happy to oblige you)
2. Uhm, walk out with your friends. Preferably a group, if that's not possilbe, at least one.
(and if you're there alone, i.e. going to the club alone and leaving better get yourself a safety plan NOW before you end up a victim) I personally never went to bars/clubs alone while in college, for the mere fact of the safety issue.
3 and finally;
If a man or stranger is following you, once you're in your car, DRIVE TO THE NEAREST POLICE STATION If you aren't close to one, dial 911, and tell them where you are, ask them to direct you...but NEVER STOP. You could also call ahead to a male family member or male friend and ask them to be waiting at the door to a place you can go safely.

Really, no sarcasm intended, but use your head!!
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 1 (view)
Have you been CONTACTED by the SPOUSE of someone you've 'met'?
Posted: 3/9/2009 5:09:50 PM
(and I say 'met' in the sense that someone you've had contact with, but didn't necessarily meet in person)
So, okay, I'm curious. How many of you, male or female, have ever been contacted by a spouse or significant other, of someone you've met online? (can be someone you've met offline too) I recently answered an email from someone on THIS SITE, and after a few emails back and forth, we exchanged phone numbers (normal progression, imho) AND then out of the blue, get a call from a spouse (or S.O.) and you're totally and completely shocked. Not so much because you're interested, like or care about the person, but simply because you are on the unsuspecting end of someone's troubled life/relationship/marriage...etc...It's happened to me MORE than once, and quite frankly I'm annoyed by it, although I know of no way to prevent it from happening....(there was one time I waited several MONTHS before exchanging numbers, and it still happened!) Personally, it's disgusting to me that a married person is out there, in public, blatantly searching for a new love interest or whatever, and they have a completely different life they're hiding.
If this has happened to you, what have you done about it, if anything?
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 119 (view)
If I decide to tell you anymore about this situation - the truth, blah, blah, blah.....
Posted: 2/3/2009 9:24:55 PM
@savonawoman (yes, it appears like I'm getting pounded in ways I can't even count in this thread) BUT, in viewing the posts that followed my last, I only want to reply to one, at this point in time (my head hurts from trying to sort out the wise, insightful suggestions I got)

When a woman is there to comfort a man who is having troubles with his partner, well that is creating an intimate relationship that EXCLUDES the SO. AND is also disrespectful to be talking about her with him behind her back.

As I mentioned to another poster; my friendship with my late friend (I called him Ed)
was a true, very close, and yes...intimate friendship in that...we told each other EVERYTHING. Just could say 'best friends' do. I knew him b4 the g/f and
he believed that be of equal importance to him, as far as what we shared between us.
Have you ever had a girlfriend, whom you talked to...about HER boyfriend, say...when she needed advice, or just wanted to talk about an issue with him? I would bet for sure, you have.....did you feel disrespectful towards HIM? It's the exact same thing. That's how our friendship was.....

When you said ::: I did give him advice on it. And as a matter of fact, I once pointed out to him "Ed, instead of leaning on me, you should be ABLE to lean on her, with your grief about your mom"...
It rings of ... I am so much better at giving you comfort than your own wife/partner which is actually putting her down in their eyes. You saying ::: ""You should be ABLE to lean on her"" really is saying she isn't good to you since you can't lean on her ...

I never said anything remotely close to him like your suggesting and I know he never viewed it as such! And, because we were such good friends, neither one of us ever felt the need to censor what we said to each other! We were HONEST with each other and often asked each other for opinions. And...because we were such good friends....we both felt comfortable enough to express our thoughts to each other, without any fears. I'm not being sarcastic in saying this....but...isn't that what friends are all about? (would you view it differently if it was a girlfriend I was having the same conversation with??) By the same token, then I would be saying "I am better than your boyfriend because I support you, so...guess what...dump him and just have ME in your life" ?? I don't understand the logic....our friendship was a platonic one, one that crossed gender boundaries...we were simply one of each others 'best friends'.

..... BUT look at me and how good I am to you. It is a slight, I know, but slight innuendos can have a big impact. It seems like a veiled comment that his partner is not as good to him as you are. So makes you the better person. -------That is probably not what you meant ... but that is the way it comes across.

Comes across to who? Again, not sarcastic, but honest? He knew, he absolutely knew that I was never trying to say 'I'm better than her' because for starters... "I" was never on the table for comparison! I LOVED him. I LOVED him as a friend. Nothing more, nothing less. He knew I thought the two of them were ill suited. He knew I was always hoping he'd find someone different, 'better' for him (but not ME). That's because in the simple name of friendship, if we truly care and love a friend, we always want what's best for them.
(and if you say...."who are YOU to decide what's best for him"?...well....I knew enough to know he was often miserable with her, she'd hurt him many times, and I was the one to watch my friend hurt) In fact, most of his friends, besides me....all believed he 'could do better' as far as 'a significant other'....And, at one point or another, we ALL told him that!

So, by your theory, then ALL OF US, who told him, "Ed, you can do better" were essentially saying "Ed, I AM better"??

It's impossible to really make a decision and say what you're simply reading some of the posts I wrote about my friend. You can't accurately assess what he might infer, what I'm implying, etc....without all the facts, and also because you only have, my side! He isn't here to validate what I'm saying.

I only brought Ed into this thread as an example of a friendship I had with a man who had a significant other. NOT make assumptions about our friendship OR what you think IT LOOKED LIKE, or what you think COULD BE INTERPRETED. OR any impressions about what his g/f thought, etc....
There are just too many complex dynamics and over 13 years of history that my friend and I had one could ever guess what HE thought, what his g/f thought....'s totally out of line to start picking apart a conversation I had with my dead friend, when you (or anyone) didn't even know him, me, or our friendship. I brought it up in response to what people make a point about this entire thread. To tell me, that I, in some way, was disrespectful to my late friend's g/f, is just......wrong. (I think I was wrong to even bring up a conversation he and I had, and I am sorry I did)

To insinuate my friendship with him was anything other than honorable, is a great insult to me You're referring to someone I LOVED and who's gone forever. I cherish the memories of our talks, and to somehow imply what you're implying is disrespectful to a very sensitive thing. My bad for bringing it up I suppose, but from now on, let's please leave my late friend's chats with me out of this discussion I'd appreciate it.

TY in advance.
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 100 (view)
If I decide to tell you anymore about this situation - the truth, blah, blah, blah.....
Posted: 2/3/2009 4:33:27 PM
Ok troll, I'll play for a minute;

Again ... from the OP
while I observed Bob hooking up with another woman, and yes, it bothered me, I have NO intention of using Joe as a means to get back with Bob
Hahahaha ... I don't recall anyone saying that besides YOU! You just keep stepping in it, my dear "lady."
How's the "get back with Bob" thing working for ya?

Hmmm, think because I saw Bob hooking up with another woman and I didn't say BESIDES ME you've got it all figured out now, huh....

Listen serpent, analyze my words all you want. Skew 'em however you choose. Think it's a 'freudian slip' all you want. I didn't think realize you were a troll, so I wasn't analyzing every word I wrote. But, to clarify for others who add to this thread......and others who may troll along....

The 'other woman' Bob was hooking up with....she was a 'new woman'. Not 'another' woman. Bob and I were done at that point (albeit only done for a few weeks, after a very romantic, gorgeous, for the most part fantastic, vacation to the Caribbean)

LOL....yeah....I'm stepping in it...stepping into YOUR trolling trap. Wow, and to think I USED to believe that for the most part, people are fundamentally good.
At least I can say I have something to gain by reading the thoughtful, wise, insightful opinions from this thread by participating in it....what are you gaining from IT serpent??

Bingo rocein and you got it bbw2love!

Thank you for your simple, yet insightful responses!

Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 98 (view)
I am not sure who is in denial....
Posted: 2/3/2009 4:18:55 PM
ok, another

and one of the things you wrote is: "Did I fill a need for my late friend that his SO couldn't offer? I think so. I was way more 'warm' and 'understanding' than her . . . "
So that's where I got a feeling of a competitive, better than spirit from and truthfully, it is in a lot of what you've written.

Competitive, no. His g/f and I had/have different personality attributes. She was more 'cold' and became intolerant of his constant depression about the loss of his mom.
I wasn't trying to compete with her at all. In fact, he and I really didn't talk about her
reaction to his depression all that much. BUT, where I saw a friend who needed compassion and support, instead of (some might say - tough love) I gave him the shoulder, and allowed him to grieve in my ear. Countless times at 3 am, when he couldn't sleep.
She had ONE trait, that didn't work well with him, and I had one trait, that helped him.
Far, far from a competition.....

The only reason I brought up my late friend, compare, or bring up a situation where I was once 'close friends' with a guy, who had a significant other. How, I never 'met the SO', we were never sexual and were purely platonic, AND how she never had a problem with me. And, how there was NO drama as a result of our friendship, no one got hurt by it, and it was a beautiful, fulfilling relationship, for him and for me.
I didn't bring my late friend up to have my friendship with him dissected on a POF board.
To do that, as I said is really disrespectful to his memory and our friendship.
I wanted to say;
1. I had a friend, who I recently lost, who had a significant other
2. I had a friend, who happened to be a male, who turned out to be one of my best friends, in my entire life
3. Where many people on this thread would probably have said my late friends intentions were other than platonic (because we became friends AFTER my ex-fiance' - his best friend of 30 + years - and I, broke up) they never went beyond platonic.
4. That couldn't it.....isn't it possible, that a man and a woman where one is in a marriage/common law marriage/or has an SO that there is NO sexual element and no one gets hurt.

That's why I brought up my late friend. As a reference point. Not for anyone to attack my character, behavior, motives, etc..

Since you're not interested in being friends with his wife, how are you going to KNOW that he told her this?

Well, if you read my original post. You'll see he mentioned how he'd call me back...
It's simple. If it's OKAY for me to call him whenever I want. And, he answers, rather than calls me back at another (more private time, for instance). There are numerous ways for me to determine this....e.g. if I call him and he isn't saying 'Can't talk now, bad time'...or
if I call him and continually get his voice mail....or if I call him and the phone goes to voice mail in one second (indicates someone is rejecting a call) there ARE ways...if you're observant and pay attention.

Again and again and again...@~eve~

If I wasn't respectful of how his wife feels, I'd never have asked or mentioned her in the first place, nor would I have come to the decision that in order for us to be friends outside the club, she NEEDS TO KNOW. And he CAN'T HIDE ME from her.
That, imho, IS being respectful and caring about the wife!!

And just to be devil's advocate, when does marriage ENTITLE anyone to OWN a person?
Two people may make a public, legal statement of love and intention to share their lives with someone, but when does it become equal to OWNING that person, and who they chose as friends? A LOT of people have different ideas about marriage. And if you don't believe're not very informed. I mean, come you realize how many people live alternative lifestyles?? Swingers, open relationships, it or not...
there are those marriages that DO exist!

I DON'T want to come off as a threat or disrespect her and their relationship in any way. So for example, although he says you can text him whenever, I would keep my texting to day time hours and not very very frequently.

That's what I'm talking about here, before everyone criticized my intentions/motives/self esteem issues/etc...etc...etc....

See my post with the red stop sign. TY

Whilst I am very sorry for the loss of your friend I have to ask why he wasnt spending ALL that time with his girlfriend instead of you. I would have to also ask WHY you would want to spend all that time with him when you knew he was having troubles with his common law wife. WOuldnt a true friend suggest he goes and works it out with her.
You're assuming here. They spent time living together and I NEVER took time away from her. My late friend (from this point on...I'll call him Ed) We saw each other irregularly - about me 10% to about 90% with her... But, talked on the phone much more frequently. And, he and I did talk about his relationship w/her. I did give him advice on it. And as a matter of fact, I once pointed out to him "Ed, instead of leaning on me, you should be ABLE to lean on her, with your grief about your mom" matter though...he loved her and she couldn't provide that emotional support he needed. About a year before he died, they DID break up.

Seems that whilst you loudly proclaim your innocence that everything is above board, no touchy feely stuff going on) that you are quite happy to take these married/attached mens time away from their partners. Time that Im sure would be better off spent with their partners.

Quite happy to take these married/attached men away from their partners. My my....jumping the gun here huh? I have had ONLY one 'close friendship' with a man who was attached. My friend Ed. Please...don't assume. I didn't say anywhere on this thread I've had multiple relationships with attached men. So, in this matter, yes I will wildly proclaim my innocence. Because I am and it's a fact.

I still really question why you have so many close friendships with unavailable men. Put yourself in the other womans shoes, that should stop it happening quick smart. But then again, you dont think you are doing anything wrong

Again, where did I say I have 'so many friendships with unavailable men'????? I said I have many MALE friends and part of that stems from having two brothers. Some I've known since I was 12, and yeah...they're married now...but I didn't say how close I am TO THEM're assuming.

Please, please for the love of God, read some of my responses on the thread before you come to any assumptions about what I've done in the past or what I have planned on doing....

Someone very smart, very wise, on this thread (and I'm too tired to look and quote them) suggested that the wife should know. And I think that is the best advice I can see, that is objective, without attacking me personally To whomever that was....TY, I appreciate that suggestion and concur it's a great idea!
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 91 (view)
I am not sure who is in denial....
Posted: 2/3/2009 3:36:57 PM

Ok, now I'll nit pick. You did say "so far". Which means that there is potential for it to happen in the future. Then later said that you don't find him at all sexually attractive. There is a huge disconnect between those two statements. Admit it, deal with it, don't whine about people calling you out on it, and in the future, think before you click "post". You also have 15 minutes to edit your post.
And I also saw a number of times where you are quite self-centered and selfish about your friendships. Like not wanting to put any effort into getting to know this guy's wife at all. Ya, that's considerate of you...

Okay. You are 'nit picking' TWO WORDS I wrote, 2 words, and trying to somehow derive another, completely off beat meaning from it. Okay, I chose the wrong two words. I should have said
1. I have not slept with him the first time I met him.
2. I have not slept with him, at all.
Perhaps, that would've been a better choice of words. I can't believe you're trying to say (or someone else was) that that is a freudian slip? I can tell you with 100% absolute certainty, that there is no way, no how, I would sleep with this guy. For me to knock knees with a man, I need several elements to be there and while I won't go into all of them, ONE of them is PHYSICAL ATTRACTION. No matter how close Joe and I could ever become, I am NOT attracted to him in that way, at all. (I'm not going to describe him in detail here, that's wrong, but let me assure those who think 'it will happen, eventually' or 'you'll fall in love', me, I am NOT attracted to him in that way.
Just as I was NEVER attracted to my late friend in that way. It didn't happen then, and it won't happen with Joe, either. If, if your theory was correct, about your quote below, my looking for a husband, I'm definitely NOT looking in Joe's direction!!!
Additionally, I wrote that list of 12 things or so, as examples of what I believe may be considered 'genuinely trampy' behavior. I HAVE NOT ENGAGED IN ANY TRAMPY BEHAVIOR, IMHO
Now, if you think my behavior is 'genuinely trampy' like the other poster stated, well...I guess you and I define 'genuinely trampy' behavior differently.

Sounds like you're looking for a husband, and you're looking at somebody elses husband.
Whether I may or may not be looking for a husband, isn't the point.
I also value having close friendships in my life, and I am merely looking at this guy, as a potential friend.....and I am taking into consideration the undeniable fact, that he is, in fact, married I said that, in numerous other responses in this thread.
If anyone reads those responses of mine in this thread, before they post, they'll see that YES....I am taking the wife's feelings, position as his wife, their marriage, etc...into consideration BECAUSE - I did state "I will tell Joe, that if he tells his wife about talking to me, having a friendship with me, then it's possible" and I said "A condition for us to become closer friends is; I won't be a secret! That means, he can NOT hide me, from her"

Wow, what more can I say?
You verityone...said
Your motives might not be a threat, but that doesn't mean that this situation cannot be potentially harmful to the guy's wife, and potentially filled with drama in your life.
which is absolutely true.
However, if he tells his wife, and she IS OK with it, then the potential harm to her falls upon her for accepting it, after being asked permission, by her husband. That would be akin to me, when I was married, saying yes, to my husband becoming friends with a woman, with MY knowledge, and my 'permission' (for lack of a better word) and then crying about it later, when husband left me because I'm not giving him what he wants. (and I'm referring to a non-intimate relationship where he's getting emotional needs met) If I ever posted a thread about that scenario, I would be nailed big time by responses like "Well, you allowed him to, told him it was okay, what did you expect"?

I wonder why everyone is still ignoring the fact of what I said in an earlier response. The part about HIM TELLING HIS WIFE about ME!!!! That, when I see him again, he's going to have to do that, if he wants to be friends with me......????
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 80 (view)
Would you become 'GOOD, CLOSE FRIENDS' with a MARRIED man or woman?
Posted: 2/3/2009 1:21:10 PM

Let's fast forward three years from now. Broken hearted OP is asked did she see any red flags that this man was married . . .

Don't you CARE? Don't you care to know?

No, honestly, I don't really care. Why. Because it's HIS business. It's not my place to interrogate him on why he doesn't bring his wife out, or why he goes out without her.

*sigh* Some women DO get off on the triangular relationship thing; the I'm better than her thing and that is SAD, SAD, SAD.

Honey, don't even GO THERE. You have NO idea, NONE whatsoever, what my late friend went through, before he put a bullet in his head. You have no idea the PAIN he was LIVING through, some related to his g/f, some not related (the death of two of his family members) For you to suggest, that MY helping him was anything other than out of love for a friend, suggests to me, your level of sensitivity. Even to bring UP my late friend in that way.....well....I can't put the words ON this forum in POF.

Shame on you. Unbelievable.

I think you are trying to replace him and in your mind Joe has all the necessary requirements one of which is a woman waiting in the wings that you can be better than.

Where you get that is beyond me? I have yet to suggest I was 'better than' my late friend's g/f OR am better than Joe's wife. Nor am I trying to be.

What I did for my late friend, was be MORE supportive than his g/f, when his mother died.....he needed a shoulder, I gave him one. I never said I was 'better than her'. Obviously, they were a better match romantically, than he and I were or could have been. But, when she turned him away, by coldly saying "GET OVER IT ALREADY",
he needed a friend, and I was there.
I suggest you leave that subject of my late friend's needs OUT OF THIS POST.
To NOT DO SO, is disrespectful to his memory. And his girlfriend. So, please don't go there.

As far as Joe's wife. I am not proposing I am better than her. Nor do I want to be, nor do I want to replace her.
If he were to tell me tomorrow, 'Hey, listen, I can't be friends with you, because it would upset my wife" , then that is 120% okay with me!

It's so interesting that because I posted about being friends with a married man, who mentioned to me I am attractive, that so many people can dissect this into something it is NOT. Or that it IS.

For God's sake people, I already decided for me to become 'close friends' or closer than just a friend in a club, that HE HAS TO TELL HIS WIFE.
FLASH IT can NOT be a SECRET. I can NOT be a SECRET.

Please read the posts before you throw your 2 cents in.

And, finally.....stop before you write to give your psycho babble opinions on my motives, needs, supposed self esteem issues, or whatever else you think may make you an expert on human behavior.

Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 79 (view)
I am not sure who is in denial....
Posted: 2/3/2009 12:59:41 PM

OP why are you defending yourself so adamantly?

Well, let's see. According to the women on here, I have low self esteem, am an attention grabbing, genuine tramp, who's so insensitive to a wife in the background with the potential to be a careless home wrecker.

And now
1. I didn't screw the guy so far.
Someone on here thinks they're Freud! Do I have to defend my above statement? Because I added the words 'so far'.
Well, gee....I added 'so far' because in the context of miss GoldDiggerWithBigJugs pointed out, I was being 'genuinely trampy' in my behavior. POINTING out that IF...IF I had slept with him AFTER meeting him for the first time, (as opposed to the first time I met him) THEN.....then you may call my behavior 'genuinely trampy'.

I suppose then, according to Freud, if I drink from a bottle neck beer instead of a glass...than perhaps I'm trying to satisfy some urge to SUCK? Please. You've got to come up with something better than Freud?

Oh, OK. Yes I know you are as sweet as sugar pie, and YOU would NEVER make out with a married man, or lead one on, or fluff up your cute little self to get that oh so special attention that you seem to need to feel good about yourself. Nawwww

I bet you were just sitting there as cute as can be ... not leaning into him at all, not giving any idication of ohhhh baby I think you are so cute but too bad you are married kinda vibes to that guy. Oh ok, he just wants to be your friend, right out of the blue ... at a club after you have what, only 3 drinks ....

(Little error in your assessment up there. It's NOT outta the blue, in case you didn't notice, I've been acquainted with the guy for 2 yrs now...)

Ok, so now you're not JUDGING me! Instead you chose another route to assess me..!
Don't patronize me lady. Who are you? You've got me all summed up because I exchanged phone numbers with a married guy, whom I can, and will, stop right in his tracks if he were to act sexual towards me. And, in the THREE days I've had his phone number HAVE NOT called yet (nor has he called me) you've got it all figured out. Oh, that's right, he complimented me, so therefore I'm in desperate need for male attention.
LOL, right. Like I don't get attention from single men at all. Oh, but wait, I must have a need to feel attracted to men who are UNAVAILABLE, maybe to stroke my ego? For some ill placed need to go home and say "Wow, I'm attractive to a married man" How great is THAT! I'm the shiit! LOL...another funny one!

Wow, where have you been all my life? To guide me on my immoral and sad, pathetic,
twisted needs?

I've met all kinds of men as a single woman, again. The older I get, the more strange some situations I see.
3 weeks ago, I was invited into a 3some, with a 'good male friend' who's fooling around with a married woman (but ya know...he's my friend and although I don't approve of what he does, he's still my friend) and this was because SHE suggested it, and asked him, to ask me. (I said NO, in case those of you who deemed me 'genuinely trampy' think I said yes)
2 weeks ago, I was invited by a another very dear, single 'male friend' to go to NY, to check out swingers clubs. He and I dated in the past, until I discovered his interest in alternative lifestyles, not my thing. (didn't stop him from inviting me 2 weeks ago, though) to which I said NO.

Believe it or not, if you choose, but both these guys are RESPECTED members of the community. Imagine that. Wow, what 'genuinely trampy' behavior they engage in and INVITE ME into!

My point being....I don't NEED or WANT Joe's friendship to satisfy what you have determined to be my coyish, sad little needs. If I were to never see Joe again, or decide not to develop a friendship with him, my self esteem is and will, remain, intact.
That's because it's not based on Joe, the married guy wanting to 'be my friend' or 'being invited' into a 3some, by a woman, OR 'being invited' to a swingers club.

Oh, so because I was told I'm attractive by a married man, who suggested a friendship, that means I have self esteem issues??? Oh, okay. I have to go now. I'm about to cry.
Woe is me, what will I do without all the attention I get?
Thank you so much for telling me this, I didn't know how incredibly f'd up I am!!

Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 77 (view)
How about my friendship with my late friend, who had a Significant Other for almost 10 yrs!!
Posted: 2/3/2009 12:23:18 PM
THIS is a long reply, but I've got a LOT to say....on some of the posts I've read....

@ kayliecat, et al...

Why does Joe spend so much time hanging out at a popular dance club, drinking with single women, without his wife?

Besides why is this married man in clubs without his wife? Why doesn't he ever bring her?

I wonder why if you've known him for 2 years the question of why he goes out so much without his wife hasn't arisen.

A lot of people are questioning "Why is he out without his wife, on a weekend night, for 2 yrs" My answer to that is "How the helll should I know"? I once recall asking him, and this was a long time ago, "Where's your wife"? And, I remember him replying something to the sort of "She's at home, this is MY night out"! Looking at things from the surface, a LOT of people on here are going to say "Well....something is wrong with that...he should be home with his wife...blah, blah, blah"....
My answer to that is a) His reason for going out, without his wife, on a weekly basis, is HIS reason, maybe he isn't happy in his marriage, maybe he is, I've never delved that far into it, considering, we haven't had deep, long conversations about meaningful things, after all.....we're in a club, having fun with's not a venue for serious conversation!
and b) if he IS unhappy in his marriage, and this is one way he deals with it...that is HIS business. Who am I to scold him and tell him "Go home to your wife"? Someone referred to my age, being that I'm 42...(but acting 22??? LOL) Well, this man is an adult. How he chooses to spend his Saturday nights, is up to him. And evidently, whatever his wife thinks...he is the one deciding to go out, alone without her. What is going on in their marriage is their business and I'm not going to judge him, not at this point. He hasn't made any sexual advances towards I'm reserving my opinion on that.

And, incidentally, in all the time that I've known him and seen him at the club, (and it's usually whenever I'm there) I've never once seen him 'hook up' with a woman. He's always surrounded by a group of friends....usually the same ones that know Bob and I.

It's important to note, that while I observed Bob hooking up with another woman, and yes, it bothered me, I have NO intention of using Joe as a means to get back with Bob
Why was I upset about Bob, and did Joe notice/comment on it....well...Bob and I had just returned from a 9 day vacation to St. Lucia, and HE ended it WHILE we were on our trip, and ALL of our mutual friends had asked how our trip was....needless to say, they got two different answers. When Bob was hooking up with that woman, he did it blatantly right in front of me, about THREE WEEKS after our trip. So, was evident that I was a little upset about it......Joe wasn't the only one who noticed and appeared to empathize with me. Joe wasn't the only one to say something either....But as to Joe being a route for me to reconnect with Bob, not going to happen. This was back in Oct/Nov.
The Bob situation is done. I did care, was upset back then...but that ship has sailed and I just don't care about Bob anymore!! Therefore, see the below quote.

I do believe you that you don't wanna screw the man....yet. I don't believe that you aren't inappropriately attention seeking, and also hoping "Joe" is a path back to "Bob" (because...why do you care if "Bob" has found a new victim if you are indeed done with him?)

I'm not seeking any attention from Joe or anyone. I go out with my friends as I said (male and female) and have a group of people I know through going there. When I go, I hang out with both groups. E.G. If one of my friends is hooking up with/met someone, and the others are dancing, and say I'm having a drink I bought for myself.....I just might happen to go over to where the group I met there, happen to be standing, and chat with ALL OF THEM.
I don't seek Joe out, but may go talk to Jack, Tim, or James....(and sometimes there are women in the group too). It's called socializing! (now Jack, and James are single, and we've also exchanged numbers, but neither of them have ever called me, it seems that since I don't want to date them, they don't want to 'befriend' me??)

All this to say..."Joe" is full of crap...he has been putting the moves on you since day one...and couldn't WAIT until his buddy was done with you. He has been watching your behavior...especially the "on and off" part...and because he knows "Bob" and the type of guy he is...he read the entire situation (correctly or incorrectly) as being one where you are a woman with either few boundaries or low self esteem. He probably has also gotten some inside intel in this regards from "Bob" himself.

Ok, so based on your assessment, I may have few boundaries and low self esteem, right?
Joe and Bob aren't that close. I've never known Bob to hang out with Joe, outside the club. At least in all the time I dated Bob, he never once mentioned hanging out with Joe.
And, as much of a 'not so nice guy' Bob turned out to be, Bob still wouldn't steer a married man in my direction. You can protest this all you want. But, I know Bob, and Bob would NOT encourage a married man to go pursue ME. Bob knows, 'ain't nothing gonna happen' (refer you back the my post where I stated Bob and I dated for ONE and A HALF years before any intimacy happened!!)

Ok, so based on a good percentage of folks on here, I should clearly doubt Joe's motives, and assume he's out for something other than a friendship. It's that black and white. If I do pursue a friendship with him, I'm acting 'irresponsibly', 'immaturely', and a few other things....Well..based on those opinions.....if I were to listen to that logic without any question...THEN, then.....I should look back to my late friend who died last May...and erase him outta my life! Why, 'cause he had a live-in g/f, whom I had never met....much less hung out with. And mind you, my late friend, did NOT become a close friend until HIS BEST friend (my ex-fiance') until we broke up. (Hey...he couldn't WAIT until we broke up, to make his 'move') Went right in for the kill....
In that case, I'd never would have had the friend who helped me put groceries on the table when my ex and I split and I was initially broke $$ (Hey....he was buttering me up)
I never would have had the friend I had HOLD my hand when I woke up from life-changing surgery, held my hair back when I puked from chemo, or cheered me up when I was lonely at Christmas, and helped me buy a real Christmas tree with his pick up truck....or when I was in the middle of my chemo, I wouldn't have gone on the BEST NON date ever, to the beautiful Longwood Gardens, to help lift my spirits and give me more will to live and fight.....because HEY...he had a LIVE-IN girlfriend who never met me!!
(they might have well been married....they probably were considered 'common law' married, in the state of Pa).

So, based on many peoples theory....I was 'out of line' in my friendship with my late friend. Because I entered into a friendship, (operative word being 'entered', 'cause we weren't close while I was with my ex-fiance') that was 'irresponsible' and 'immature' and seeking 'male attention', with a man who was for all intents and purposes, common law married. (and this was guy became one of my BEST friends, I can't even describe the depth of my loss - who NEVER hit on me!!)

Did I fill a need for my late friend that his SO couldn't offer? I think so. I was way more 'warm' and 'understanding' than her. When he was depressed (he eventually committed suicide) it was me he called at 3 am, who listened and was there for him. (when his g/f told him to 'get over his mother's death'), it was me, whom he leaned on...who would never have told him was ME, (I'm an RN) who led to him see a physician, to get to see a psychologist, and did my best, as a 'close, dear, friend' to keep him from suicide!
I was told I was mentioned in a note. (this is coming from my ex-fiance', so I'm not sure how true it is??) BUT, everyone at his funeral, although they had NEVER met me, KNEW me, by what he had told them. (all this was unbeknownst to me).

(oh and incidentally, my late friend always complimented me, was my biggest fan, and would often say 'we should get married, we're so compatible...but that would be like marrying my sister...ha ha ha, so we can't'!) Did he have an ulterior motive? I'll never know, but he never acted on it.

I don't have a need as some have stated, for male attention. Or to find 'married men' as friends. I'm just faced with the prospect of becoming friends with one who's married. I wouldn't date him if he wasn't married. I only see him as a friend. However, I like him, his personality, his sense of humor, etc....some have said "Why don't you go out and find a male 'single' friend? LOL...that's a joke. I already have them. And a good deal of the time, in spurts....they're off with their 'new g/f's' the minute they meet them and naturally, they're hanging out with them MORE. They're still my friends, we still hang out....but hey...they're pursuing a woman for a relationship, so I don't expect them to go to a movie with me, when they're pursuing someone. (that's the natural process of human nature, to spend time with a potential mate, often over a friend)

I know this is a long reply, as are my other replies. But I want to address those who's theories are wrong. (as far as my own intentions, needs, etc)

The only thing any one can say with any accuracy is....(and maybe a psychologist can answer this???) IS.....I miss the friendship I had with my late friend. I know I can't replace him. But, I wonder, just wonder....if 'Joe' could be as good of a friend?
One of the great things about my friendship with my late friend, would NEVER go anywhere other than a friendship between us. I liked that comfort, no pressure.
He had his g/f...I dated. We exchanged life stories about both.

A LOT of these responses to my thread are picking apart my motives, needs, etc...
What I originally wanted to know...were answers to the questions of the OP.
What OTHERS experiences were too! Yes I mentioned the WIFE. YES I am taking her into consideration. Beyond that, I had other questions!

Whew...that was a book. I hope what I wrote is actually read by those who post after this, especially the fact about my late friend.

Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 57 (view)
Would you become 'GOOD, CLOSE FRIENDS' with a MARRIED man or woman?
Posted: 2/3/2009 12:36:10 AM

IMO you have this all figured out! Well done. As you said you're not naive to the point where a male friend could have sexual feelings for you without you noticing.

TY, although I didn't have it all figured out at first. Only in that I knew and was thoughtful enough to ask 'Bob' how his wife would feel about it, me calling him
and it nagged at me...the idea that she wouldn't/doesn't know. I don't want to cause friction or trouble in anyone's life. And, kudos to you as well....because - you realize there are relationships married people have where there is respect and understanding, and also important, trust...that allows one of them to have friends, good friends of the opposite sex, without it being sexual, or with an ulterior motive present.


WRONG!! Not just "someone." You gave your number to a married man WITHOUT his wife's knowledge. Genuine trampy behavior, for sure!
P.S. I am labeling your behavior, not you, personally. If I was labeling you, I would call you a back-stabbing tramp ... but let me make it clear - I am NOT calling you (personally) any names, I am just addressing your behavior

(just love your screen name, so classy!!, even for a joke, what a hoot!)

NO, you ARE judging me. Call it by proxy, whatever. You're saying my 'behavior' (the action of me exchanging numbers, with an acquaintance, a person I've known casually for about 2 yrs, is trampy??)'ve got to be kidding me, right?

According to Merriam Webster's dictionary a tramp is;
a woman of loose morals

So, you're saying my behavior is that of 'a woman of loose morals'??? Give me a break!
Now, I have high standards, decent values and strong moral ethics, and you're saying my behavior is that of someone who has 'loose morals'. BECAUSE I exchanged phone numbers with a married guy???

I'm completely baffled how you'd consider exchanging phone numbers with a married man, who isn't a STRANGER to me, but someone I do know and have for some time,
genuine trampy behavior
1. I didn't screw the guy so far.
2. I didn't screw the guy on the first night.
3. I didn't kiss the guy.
4. There was no ass grabbing, boob grazes - let alone fondling...
5. We didn't even dance together at all, let alone slow dance...
6. We have no secret meeting planned.
7. We have NOT contacted each other so far He did NOT contact me, or I him.
8. I have no physical attraction towards him.
9. I didn't tease him in any way, shape, or form...I didn't 'lick my lips' or bat my eyelashes at him, arch my back, or flirt with him in any way....
10. I had no more than 3 drinks in 4 1/2 hours, so I was relatively sober.
11. My attire that evening wasn't in the least bit, revealing (not looking for attention here in the way I dress or conduct myself while I'm out dancing with friends, who yes..happen to be of BOTH genders!
12. I didn't compliment him on anything other than being a nice guy. Didn't lay it on thick, as some do...

And you consider this what?? If my 'behavior' was 'genuinely trampy'...then what would YOU define the 12 things I mentioned above? IMHO, take several of the aforementioned, add a few together, and you MIGHT get 'genuinely trampy behavior' and even's debatable depending on who you talk to.

I have to say. I've now heard it all!!

I'm thinking if you were my mom, (I don't know your age, no matter though...just for the sake of your comment) I wouldn't have kissed a man until I was 21, would never have been allowed to wear a mini skirt, even pink lipstick, been beaten with a stick if I ever went over a boys house, or gone out on a date without a chaperone!

If anything,'s more appropriate to judge HIS behavior, 'Bob's' behavior, for wanting to exchange numbers and initiating by asking. After all, he's the one who's attached, (and whose motives are in question) NOT mine. I did nothing wrong at this point, by simply exchanging numbers Much less, behaved in a 'trampy' manner.

You're in the wrong thread if you want to throw around terms like tramp at an OP. And, unless you've spent your life in a convent, do not even go there. Way off base as Indycorona71 stated. Way off base! (especially with a screen name as yours....what was it...GoldDiggingSerpentW/Jugs? - however tongue in cheek that name may be, I could really run with that one!!!)

Having said all that...I really appreciate the suggestions and stories many have written.
There's a lot to be said about bouncing things off of objective strangers, who may have insight into a situation they're completely objective to, and it's been helpful in me deciding on a good, decent way I can become 'close friends' with 'Bob', while taking into consideration the feelings his wife may have. I probably wouldn't have arrived at that solution as quickly as I would have, had I not posted. I stand by my moral compass by reminding those who see this...that I did ask him how his wife would feel about it....and to date, I have not contacted him. I live by the creed that I will not hurt anyone for my gain..and I won't, under any circumstances. It makes me happy to say, when I go to sleep at night, I sleep well, without worrying about my actions hurting an innocent person. And all the in depth thoughtful posts here really are appreciated, so TY everyone!
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 49 (view)
Would you become 'GOOD, CLOSE FRIENDS' with a MARRIED man or woman?
Posted: 2/2/2009 10:00:17 PM

Just another club fly rationalizing her "not nice" behavior.

Do you always judge people who have DONE NOTHING?? All I have done so far is exchange phone numbers with someone. Do you always label people too? Whom you don't know. Seems so. So, I'm sorry, but I'll have to disregard your thoughts and opinions.
Not because of whether I agree with them or not, (and I don't) but because you don't know me well enough to call me a 'club fly' and labeled my behavior as 'not nice'.
Are you God? No. So, therefore, your judgment is of no importance, to me. I say this preemptively to those who want to judge me......I'm only worried about He who judges me, not you.
I realize posting a thread opens you up to a myriad of opinions and thoughts...and I welcome them. But, don't judge ME

Yet you have no qualms about doing the same thing.

Wrong. I do have qualms. (part of the reason I posted the thread, to hear others stories!)
I'm not a home wrecker as I said earlier and I am thoughtful of this man's wife. And how she may feel about it.

Another point I'm going to bring up (about my ex fiance') that is relevant. He was friends with a woman (I'll call her Barb). Now Barb worked at the bank my ex worked next to, so they'd often meet for lunch, and often called each other on the phone and chatted. When his high school reunion came around, and I didn't want to go....they went together. Now mind you, I had never met her...but I was never uncomfortable with the two of them, and their friendship. Barb would also go out sometimes without HER husband, to old local hangouts that her and my ex went to, when they were younger. (I'd be home with the kids)...and in all that time, I was never bothered by his 'friendship with Barb'.
I was with his ex-girlfriend, but not with Barb. Another example, he was friends with a 'Lisa'. She would often refer business to him, lived in our neighborhood and they'd often get together to smoke some weed (I'm not into THAT, so I never went). Now, my ex's sister once told me that HE and LISA had slept together about 20 yrs before and that my EX was painfully embarrassed about it...he denied it to everyone, but everyone knew about it. Now, I KNOW my ex never rekindled that flame, and I know why (for reasons I won't get into here) so, although I wasn't jumping for joy that he'd be hanging out with her, smoking weed on a Saturday night (when I thought we could get a sitter and go out) I ultimately had no problem with it, and accepted it. They shared a common interest that I wasn't into. That was it. Nothing more, nothing less.

To anyone who posts now; I am pretty much decided as I stated, that I intend to tell Bob, that he has to tell his wife about ME, and if she's OKAY with it, than I'm OKAY with it, and that means, NO SECRETS, No hiding ME or my calls, to him".

By posting this thread and reading the thoughtful opinions of those who took the time to write about how I should consider the wife more, I think I've found a way to do that.
As I said, I'm not really into a double date situation, just in order to meet his wife, since I don't think that is necessarily the only solution to making her comfortable with it...I'll make sure to tell him what he needs to do, in order for us to become friends (and hey, if he wants to 'set me up' on a double date, that's fine...even not a bad idea)

I think, having male and female friends is a great part of life. Men can enrich your life, as friends in ways that a woman can't (just as women can, but men can't) So, I'm not limiting my choices of friends, married or not. I have morals and live by them and wouldn't want to hurt anyone innocently, hence my reasons for posting. BUT, I also stand firm, in my opinion, that having a close friend of the opposite sex, when one has a partner (married or not) is limiting what could be, one of life's great experiences. A friendship.

And, incidentally, I'm not that naive' to where I don't know when a guy wants sex. I can feel a guy out, and determine that all on my own. I just don't judge someone's motives overnight. I observe and see, cautiously and considerately. And if that is one's objective, I'm gone.
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 46 (view)
Would you become 'GOOD, CLOSE FRIENDS' with a MARRIED man or woman?
Posted: 2/2/2009 9:32:21 PM

Why is that? Have you ever looked at your motives? What would be the difference in having a male friend versus a female one? What are the advantages to you for having more male friends?

Because women are catty, talk about each other all the time, constantly compete, are more back stabbing, etc....I can list many reasons. AND, I have two older brothers, so...I grew up around more males, than females. Many of my brother's ( who's 4 yrs older than I), friends over the last 25 yrs became VERY good friends of mine.

s it because you prefer the way men like to treat you? Do you feel he (and all these other men) just like buying you drinks all the time? Do you think guys treat their male friends the way they treat you? What makes you expect others to believe your own motives are in the right place? Oh wait, they're the ones lavishing all this attention on you, so you're just "innocent" correct?

I see men buying their buddies drinks just as much as they buy me drinks. In the group of 5-6 male friends I have from the place I mentioned...all of us have bought rounds for each other, myself included. I have NO problem buying a guy a drink, not at all. Nor do I go to the bar without a significant amount of $$. I don't go expecting anyone to buy me drinks. Incidentally, I will repeat this...I said he bought me 'a couple of drinks'. Over the course of the roughly, 2 yrs I've known would account for about maybe 20.00.

For anyone who knows me, outside of here, online...they know my motives. I support myself and my two kids, as well as my elderly mother. I know who I am, so I don't need to justify my 'motives' to you or anyone else on here.

the only one person, relative to this thread I need to justify my motives to, would be....'Joe's wife'. And, I'd gladly do that, because I have NO ulterior motive, other than to become his friend.

I believe, as we get older, 'good friends' become more and more hard to come by
I realized that when I lost my friend Jim (the one who died last May)

If anyone wants to take a shot at my 'motives' might be more correct to suggest that I'm trying to replace my late friend.

For anyone to think these are 'games'..think what you want. I'm not playing any game.
He's the one with a spouse. Not me. I have only one to answer to, and that's the Big Guy, upstairs. (and I can tell you.....I am not 'coveting' thy neighbor's spouse!!!)
I think he's a nice, funny, enjoyable person.

Incidentally, would it matter if he didn't say he thinks I'm attractive? Or 'If only I wasn't married'? Because he expressed those thoughts...does that automatically make him guilty of being a cheat?

Some of those who posted have brought up some good questions and suggestions, others I won't dignify with an answer.

I think I may tell him, if he wants to become better friends, that he needs to inform his wife about me, tell her about me, (and how he came to know me, that I dated one of his friends, etc...) and if she's OKAY with it, (meaning I don't have to be kept a secret from her) that I'd have no problem being his friend. If it's okay for me to call him whenever, whether his wife is AROUND OR NOT, then....then we can talk.

Again, as for the rest of those on this thread who have automatically labeled me with a SCARLET LETTER, well...when you KNOW ME, as a person....that is when I will take what you have to say with more than a chuckle and a grain of salt.

Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 40 (view)
Would you become 'GOOD, CLOSE FRIENDS' with a MARRIED man or woman?
Posted: 2/2/2009 8:42:58 PM

Do I think men and women can be friends? Yes. But not in this case. You're being played and you already know it, you just don't want to hear it and you're looking for some sort of validation that it isn't so.

Well, chatte;
I refer you to the post I just posted before I saw your post.
I was friends with a guy (my EX Fiance's BEST FRIEND...) and we became closer after my ex and I split up (so you could say he was 'moving in to what was now open territory', to quote you) And he never, ever, put any moves in on me. Not once. Yes he respected me and his girlfriend. We had a lot of mutual interests and they are what deepened our friendship.

I am NOT being played because I don't allow myself to be played. If this guy even thinks about making any inappropriate (and I mean physical, sexual, etc...moves on me, he's going to be surprised, ashamed, and humiliated) as I don't allow myself to be used by men.
Maybe that's why I am still single?? I value my body, and who I share it he won't be 'fooling' me.
I'm not looking for validation, so much as stories of people [B] who have been, or are friends with married people

I certainly didn't come onto POF forums to gain permission from anyone on whether I should become friends with him. I can make that decision on my own. Sometimes in the decision making process it's nice to hear others stories. I definitely wouldn't come onto POF forums to justify my thoughts or seek validation in what YOU are assuming that this is all about. I do not date married men. Period. I don't sleep with married men. Period.
Hell, I don't have one night stands either. Period. If I'm going to be knocking knees with a man, he's going to be 100% available, emotionally, physically, and legally, before I get naked with him.

If I were to adopt your thinking...than I refer you back to my first example with my friend who died last May..he had a girlfriend when my ex - his best friend- and I, broke up. I didn't hang out with her, never even met her Had I followed your thought process, I'd have missed out on one of the most wonderful friend I ever had, in my life. Because you would have said ' and his best buddy just split up, he's moving in onto new're being played' and guess what..... you would have been wrong!!!

I'm not that bad of a judge of character, and in my 25 yrs or so of dealing with men, have learned a thing or two about being played.

And finally, how am I being played in that I don't want a 'romantic relationship' with Joe.
I have nothing emotional invested. No feelings to be hurt, no agenda to 'make him leave his wife' or have any thing other than a friendship with him. If he wants more, he isn't getting it. End of story. I know how to say NO (lol......just ask Bob, to wait a year and a half before getting intimate is a looooooong time! How many women do you know have that much self control? He's my referral for how I don't get played, definitely not in the sense you're referring to.....
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 37 (view)
Would you become 'GOOD, CLOSE FRIENDS' with a MARRIED man or woman?
Posted: 2/2/2009 8:19:14 PM
Some of my reply here goes to jumbo and me leona.....

Just to address those who are suggesting maybe I should 'befriend' her, the wife. I think that would be highly unlikely, in that I've never seen her out with him, and in all honesty, I have many female friend. Not to mention, I have quite a few friends who ARE married, and I don't hang out with them as couples.....Most married folks that I know, that are my friends, don't even bother to include me in social events, as it's all the 'couples' getting together. (I swear it's the wives who don't want to invite a single woman along and would NEVER tell me for fear of alienating me)

Besides, it's not her friendship that interests me. I agree I wonder how she'd feel about it, and I'm taking that into consideration, but (and I may get crap for this...I know!) I just don't want or need another 'couple' to hang out with.

I'm going to bring up another angle here.

Has anyone EVER had something OR someone, that they're friends with, that they've kept separate from the SO? I mean, when my ex-fiance' and I were together, he used to keep in contact with an EX GIRLFRIEND. Once I found out they went to a Metallica concert together and I was NOT happy about it. BUT....BUT....this is b/c I knew she still wanted my guy. She had made that clear to people in our circle of friends. Now, I wasn't happy with my ex for hiding the concert they went to...but he brought up a good point.
This being;

"You don't LIKE Metallica, in fact, you HATE she had tickets and I wanted to go....." and furthermore he told me "She means nothing to me, not as a girlfriend, I used to date her, but I don't care for in that way anymore, so I didn't tell you because I felt you'd be hurt by it, NOT understand, and it was innocent"

To this day, although I'm not 100% sure, but I don't believe he EVER cheated on me with her. LOL....maybe someone else, but not her. And it's based on good sources, my belief that he did NOT cheat with her

They did remain friends after I found out about the concert. I knew about that once I had found out about the concert. When we finally did split up, and this was after he would go out on weekends to clubs without ME, every week I realized that NO matter how much I didn't like it...I wasn't going to change HIM, and the bottom line was....he was unhappy in our relationship. We had huge problems. Him going out, living a separate life from me was a symptom of OUR problems, not the cause of our problems

I realize it's obvious if Joe is going out every weekend, usually on a Saturday night, that there has got to be some problem at home, or else he has an EXTREMELY understanding wife, an extremely trusting wife....

Also, very important note here. I am NOT, one bit, one iota, physically attracted to Joe, therefore I highly, highly doubt this is going to lead to an affair. In all the time I've hung out with him, talked, and have known him, I've never felt any chemistry, in a romantic, physical way towards him

Some might say "Oh yeah, sure.....right now you don't...but get closer to him and you will, eventually" Well. To that I say.."I know myself, and what/who I'm attracted to AND knowing him as long as I have, if I haven't felt an attraction by NOW, I'm NEVER going to". He's not my type, not in that sense.

Additionally, while I am taking into consideration what his wife might feel, it's because I have been cheated on, while I was married. At first, I blamed the woman....thought "What a home wrecker, a b**ch, slut, etc..." And then I realized, it's NOT her fault so much as it is HIS fault. After all HE'S the one breaking our vow. He and I have issues, not her and I. He's the one cheating! My anger was misplaced. Projected onto her, when it really belonged at him.

I understand 'when married, two become one' is heavy stuff. BUT, I also think that if you enmesh yourself so much with your spouse that you lose all your individuality, your own sense of self, as a separate person, you are doing a great disservice to yourself, your partner, and your marriage, BECAUSE no ONE person can ever meet ALL your needs!!
That is a heavy burden to put on someone. One the flip side...if you trust your spouse 100% and know they're faithful and true, why is it wrong to have a 'close friend' of the opposite sex? (I'm playing a little bit of devil's advocate here)

Again devil's advocate...
Are we to assume that if a man wants to be friends with an attractive woman (or vice versa) that SEX will eventually enter the picture? I don't think so.
In the case of my friend who passed on last May (and TY to the poster who offered here condolences) WE never, ever, ever....ever, crossed the line of friendship. And I know he loved me as a friend as I loved him as a friend. I'd have rather known him for 10 yrs and all the pain that went with losing him, than to have NEVER had him as a friend at all!!
And, had I decided NOT to become close with him because he had a live in girlfriend, I would have lost out on a LOT of great times and a great friend!
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 67 (view)
SNORING?? Does it really matter ?
Posted: 2/2/2009 12:43:42 AM
Well, my last boyfriend snored so loud, it was like a freight train in the room with me. I could NOT sleep soundly with him. Never once did I sleep a full night without waking up.
Honestly, it sucked. It was extremely frustrating that while I cared about him, and wanted to do the 'ol 'spooning' some nights...I couldn't because he kept me awake, when I NEEDED sleep.
As a nurse, I know C-PAP well. (my pity for those, OP included, who need it, since I think it must be 10x worse having that thing strapped to your face while you try and sleep)
C-PAP is loud when you're NOT trying to sleep. So, I'd imagine that it would be a factor when it comes to sleeping together. (actually sleeping)

Is it a deal breaker? Hmmm, well....only if there are other factors that are straining the relationship.

I once read that if you can find 80% of what you want in someone, the qualities, the attributes, etc....that you should hold onto that person 'cause you really can't ask for much more. No one gets 100%.

As far as my ex-boyfriend, well....we had OTHER problems that kept cropping up so...the snoring became annoying and obnoxious and intolerable for me.

One the other hand, a 'love of my life' snored. I used to wake him to roll onto his side and he'd stop. It wasn't too bad, I could deal. But probably 'cause he was a love of my life....

Hope that helps.
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 1 (view)
Would you become 'GOOD, CLOSE FRIENDS' with a MARRIED man or woman?
Posted: 2/2/2009 12:31:53 AM
Sorry in advance, this is a little long...
I've been going to a local hangout for about 2 years. It's a popular dance club. I do go regularly, although not every weekend. Met a guy there I dated off and on for about a year and a half (I'll call him Bob). It ended and we no longer talk. HOWEVER, I still talk to a mutual (male) friend of ours, who we both know from there (I'll call him Joe). Throughout my time with Bob, Joe would compliment me, ask me how I'm doing, always interested in what's going on in my life, smile all the time, and was always really friendly. Joe is married. Recently, after Bob and I split, Joe became more friendly towards me (Only in the sense that he talks to me MORE now without Bob there, because Bob's not getting all my attention) Never in a physical way, or sexual way...just always coming up to me and talking, buying me a drink or two, and when Bob met another woman there (right in front of me, he was aggressively he wooing her soon after we split) Joe reached out to me. He had pretty strong opinions about how Bob was treating me, how he 'made a mistake' and he told Bob this (he said Bob didn't respond)....and Joe's compliments to me increased...He told me that he really likes me as a 'friend', thinks I'm 'a nice girl' (as he always tells everyone we're talking to) and last night....he asked if we could exchange no.s. He very clearly said "Look, I am married, I don't mess around, don't cheat on my wife, but I would like us to be friends, I would like to be able to talk, outside of the club" So, I said okay and we exchanged numbers. He told me to text him whenever I want. When I asked how his wife would feel about that...he said "my wife trusts me, she doesn't look at my phone, or check up on me, etc...if I can text or call you back at that moment, I will..if not, I'll get back to you as soon as I can".

I've always had close male friends. In fact, more best friends of mine have been men, than women. I'm not sure if this matters, but last May, one of my best friends who was a guy, died. And it was a huge loss for me AND he also was in a committed relationship for most of the 10 yrs we knew each other, the women ALWAYS knew about me.....BUT a married guy, I'm not sure about?
I really like this guy (as a friend) and I would like to have him as a close friend, but is it crossing a boundary because he has a wife? And one who wouldn't know? (If I was married - and I was once - I'm not sure if I'd appreciate my husband forming a close friendship with a woman!

I wonder if I'm getting into dangerous territory....would anyone of you feel comfortable developing a close friendship with a married man/woman? Or do you think there's an ulterior motive on the married one's part? (Joe did say he finds me attractive, but would never act on it because he is married and also because he knows I won't date or be with a married man)
I love talking to him, we laugh and have fun, and he's a nice person. Just by knowing him casually all this time, I know he's the kind of person I'd be happy to have as a friend.
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 249 (view)
Ladies: guy kissing you or asking to kiss you?
Posted: 1/31/2009 5:02:53 AM

Somehow, if I'm being asked for a kiss it makes it seem ... dull. No matter how attracted I am to him, it lessens the kiss for some reason.

Several months ago, I was out with friends at a place where I had previously met a guy whom I had been VERY attracted to (so this was the second time we had met) and....we had spent a good portion of the night together, in fact...all of it (we were in a club) AND while we both were giving off signals, flirting, one point he looked me in the eyes, said nothing.....(just sort of stared and was smiling) and I said "What"?....(with a smile...actually I was glowing) and the simply said..."I was thinking.....can I kiss you?" !!!!

OMG, I said yes, (hey I thought he was being sweet, considering we were in a public place) and lemme tell you......That kiss...AND the one's that followed....turned out to be ONE of the HOTTEST kisses I've ever had. At one point, a stranger came up to us, stopped between us and commented "Your kissing each other is MAKING ME HOT"...

I can say without hesitation, it was nothing close to being dull. Even though we didn't see each other again (long story) it is, and so far has been one of the best kissing experiences I've ever had. Not only could the guy kiss amazingly, he was sweet about it, and we just.....gelled! It worked. OMG, one of the of the best in my life!

His asking me did not damper it, dull it, distract it.....nothing. I'm glad he asked and didn't 'just go for it'. NO matter how 'into' a guy I may be, I still don't want him taking it for granted that I want to be kissed at that moment. Maybe I want to let the desire linger....smolder? Also, some guys will always inevitably MISS signals. They often interpret just general interest or friendliness FOR attraction. And I certainly don't want every guy I'm chatting and being friendly with planting a kiss on my lips!

So, for the guys out there.....(I've asked my girfriends about this) IF a woman is INTO you....and you ASK her, she's NOT going to think negatively of you.....she'll just say 'Yes'...if anything, she'll think you're sweet and respectful. BUT, if she really digs you, it's not a problem to ask! At least not with any of the women I know....
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 341 (view)
Why are older women scared about dating younger men?
Posted: 1/29/2009 11:06:35 PM
I agree with spiderette,
(although I wouldn't go as young as 18, myself) But, I tend to feel and think I can't be with a man that looks older than me. That's how I gauge men on the 'older' spectrum. As for men younger...I LOVE them. While men in their 20's are sweet, hot, etc...I don't think I'd have that much in common with I tend to stay away from guys that young...but men in their 30's, some are more mature, still look FANFRIGGINTASTIC and are a lot of fun to be around. It seems too, that the majority (I say majority) of men become lazier as they get older...
But, one thing is - I am definitely NOT scared of younger men, not at ALL!!!
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 15 (view)
Not a tomorrow in one of them...
Posted: 1/29/2009 10:59:06 PM
Sometimes, some people say..."If the same thing keeps happening to you, time and time again, there's a common denominator there and it's YOU" , "Keep doing the same thing over and over again with the same result = idiot"....A lot of different 'sayings' and 'quotes' on this phenomenon.

I think that is a bunch of BS. There are a ton of people out there who do bad things, behave in shiiity ways...and some of us (myself included) seem to come across those people all the time. Just as some people can end up with the GREAT FORTUNE of finding the 'right one' early on in life (which is a matter of being in the right place at the right time) OR luck!...others, like the OP, haven't had THAT same great fortune!!

It reminds me of a couple I met over 20 yrs ago. The woman was standing at a BUS STOP...that's right...just standing at a bus stop.....waiting for the literal bus to come and
was spotted (by chance, pure chance) by a man who ended up being her HUSBAND!!

What was she doing that was soooo RIGHT? To bring that man to her? Absolutely nothing.

another story...about 5 years ago, a good friend of mine (who was divorced with a young teenage daughter) went out to a local bar/restaurant for a drink with a girlfriend and while she was there, a guy stepped on her foot! Yep, just stepped on her foot. He said "Sorry, can I buy you a drink, to make up for it?" and she said "Ok". Now they're very happily married.

What did she do to bring on that guy stepping on her foot? Absolutely nothing. She was just sitting at the bar, drinking an 'ol drink with a friend.....and it lead to her marriage!

I think, some of us have more luck, good fortune, than others. After all, how does one explain the good fortune to be born into a family with MILLIONS of dollars? To live a silver spoon schools, travel the world, etc.....just by being born into it. IT'S luck. There is NOTHING that person did, to bring that fortune on themselves.

Same theory applies to those who have yet to reap the benefits and beautiful fortune of meeting their Mr./Mrs. Right. It's luck, pure, unadulterated luck!
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 242 (view)
Ladies: guy kissing you or asking to kiss you?
Posted: 1/29/2009 10:07:20 PM
Didn't read through all of the posts on this thread, a random amount I did see indicated a lot of women just want to be kissed...someone even referred to that as 'prudish'...
Well, I can definitely say I'm NOT prudish, but I absolutely prefer to be asked first.
On one side of the coin, having someone plant a kiss on you may NOT be wanted. Too many guys confuse the level of interest from liking and lusting !!
I would definitely NOT want a guy to kiss me, if I'm not into him. Yuk. I've had it done to me before, and it's rude. (even worse if they shove their tongue in your throat)
On the flip side of the coin, I think it's sweet and respectable when a guy asks. It tells me he's thinking about what I want!

I may be in the minority, but to me, kissing is very intimate. There are certain instances I've heard when people are sexual and they don't kiss. Take prostitutes for instance. From what I believe, they don't get into kissing all that much?? (could be wrong, I have no first hand knowledge of this) Or, take swingers as another example...(I've heard this from a friend who's into that lifestyle)....swingers don't really get all that much into's more about the act itself, again...

Then, think about just satisfying our basic need for sex. Take the 'quickie' for example.
When you just want to devour your partner, your hot, bothered, and can't wait to be satiated...not a whole lot of kissing going's just 'let's get to the main event as fast as we can'..

With all that, I think kissing (and I think it's highly UNDERRATED is intense, passionate, and awesome. And for me, I don't want a guy plopping one on me, unless I've given him the OK (now there have been times where I've kissed someone without them asking, and it's been an awesome kiss, but more often than not, I'd want him to ask me, to make it that much better)

Just my .02
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 27 (view)
When do I say I have had cancer or do I?
Posted: 1/28/2009 10:58:17 AM
wild heart...
I tend to disagree with your opinion that not many people would want to date or have children with 'someone like this'.
I've dated that age range, since I was diagnosed back in '03. AND, I can honestly say...99% of the people I've met ARE NOT turned off by having survived cancer. It's NEVER been a factor in why any relationships I've had, ended. People have always been in awe that I went through it, and survived it. Many see it as a 'strength' I have. (not sure why?) Nearly all are compassionate. The average age of those I've dated in the last 6 yrs, when I had it....was 35.
So, the average 35 yr old guy, in my own experience, doesn't care. As far as having children with me, well....they know what age I am to begin with (as far as online dating) and that I've got 2 kids already...and that there is a GOOD CHANCE I don't want more, simply because I have them already, NOT because of my medical history.

Oh, and you can't put arthritis or even diabetes in the same class as CANCER. In doing that you are doing a incomparable reference. Diabetes is a chronic illness, but not usually life threatening....not like cancer is. It's most often EASILY managed, whereas CANCER is never easily managed, same as with arthritis. Not even in the same boat. Cancer is a very, very traumatic thing to go through. And if you're lucky enough to have a treatable cancer (Breast cancer, prostate, colon all can be treated) they're usually NOT chronic illnesses. You had it, get medical treatment, and're done with it. It then (again if you're fortunate and blessed) becomes just a piece of your medical history.

If you want to make a comparison, a better one would be Hep C, or they're diseases that are difficult to deal with.

Most issues that men need to face, with a woman who's had breast cancer are;
a) Can they deal with perhaps, a scarred woman who's had corrective surgery
b) Can they deal with a woman who's afraid to, or can't have kids because of it
(and not all women are affected by that)
c) Can you deal with someone who may die of it (No one knows what they hell they're going to die from....a breast cancer survivor may live longer than someone who has heart disease and doesn't even KNOW it) so that fact is a NON issue.

Just because someone has had Breast Cancer (or another treatable cancer) does not mean they're living with a death sentence....look at Lance Armstrong, Suzanne Sommers,
Kylie Monogue, Sheryl Crow, the list goes on and on......

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, I just get fired up by opinions that are negative.
We really need to look at all cancer survivors as survivors and then move on. Most survivors want to live with positive attitudes, and like to put the illness behind them. With the terrible stigma that's attached to 'the Big C', it makes it so hard to do so...
We should focus on awareness, yes, but not the negatives that those of us who've had it have to face. We can do that all by ourselves, thank you!!
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 40 (view)
Alcohol and clubs versus online dating
Posted: 1/28/2009 10:28:56 AM
Some interesting posts here
@azureorb - I agree with much of what you said, 100% about the 'turnover' rate..looking for flaws online as opposed to in a bar/club (you tend to look for more positives) size 'em up rather quickly, however I do differ on one point with you

3) People, gals especially, can get TONS of options. Like kids in a candy store, they will want to suck on a lot of suckers before buying 1 bag to take home for good. It can just be an attention-seeking experience for many -- much like those who like to shop for the experience itself, but don't buy that often. There are some people like that at bars, but the online realm is a haven for it.

Here's my take on no.3..
As a gal here, I feel I have a disadvantage being online as far as my options go...and here's why; Online I list my age as what I am, I'm 42. Now, being out in a bar or club, I tend to attract way, way, more men than I do online...and I believe my age is a huge factor. A lot of guys will skip right by me, simply by searching for women under 40, or under 35. LOL...I often feel like the stale candy in the back, skipped over because of my age! Whereas, when I'm out in public, I'm almost always approached by younger guys (who happen to be a preference for me - younger, or close to my age)...I'm not saying this to be conceited or arrogant, but it's a matter of fact, when I'm approached and I'm asked how old I am, NO ONE ever believes me. And, I'm almost always approached by men in their 30's, even in their 20's, MORE than I'm approached by men in their 50's. Now here online, it's the complete OPPOSITE, I get the emails by guys OVER 45. I'm constantly being contacted by men much older than me. And it's to my disadvantage, because I would rather date guys my age, or younger...And because I tend to respect peoples preferences, I won't contact men who are looking for someone under 40, and then try to 'sell myself' that I don't look or act like a 42 yr old (not to say I'm immature..but you know what I mean....) You definitely hit the nail on the head though...the turnover, variety is much better in real life.
@ lookinatit

The best advantage I can see is nobody has to wait and see who looks better at closing time

Only an advantage until you've had the online date that turned out to have a picture that was 10 YEARS OLD!! There is definitely a 2 am beer goggle effect to online's called "I do not look like my pictures, so I'll post an old one, or one with my head in a crowd" to fool everyone. Or.."I'll say I'm 'average' in size, since America is (statistically) the fattest country..OR "I'll put a hat on in my pics and no one will know I'm bald"...
Oh believe me, there are online beer goggles, it's just called "LYING"!

Plus I can always get alcohol at home, and I don't need to go to a club

Proof that people drink at home, thus the alcohol element is AT HOME, AS WELL!

No, OP whether it is clubs or online, you still must add alcohol

More proof that people most likely do drink at home while perusing the online dating thing.

what about drinking and computer dating

And again. I don't think anyone should ever fool themselves that drinking while surfing the giant online dating candy store IS not drinking while they're doing it....who's to say the person you're chatting on IM with isn't sitting at home with a glass of wine or a beer in their hand??

I don't think it's really about the alcohol so much as other elements mentioned here in the thread by a lot of people
Both have lots of lines, lies, desperation, and people looking to get laid.
One night stands occur as a result of both.
If a guy (or woman) is out to get laid, it's doesn't matter one iota which venue they choose to find someone to screw and have a one night stand. I've met several guys online, who ultimately just wanted to get another notch in their bedpost and....when they didn't with me, they moved on to the next. And I know this because I still remained friends to some degree and continued to talk, some I'm still friends with to this day
Men have told me "I'm like a big kid in a candy store" and proceed to tell me how they've met someone 'online' and they slept together the FIRST night...(one night stand) and.....the next week, it was someone else, and the next, and the next, etc....
In fact, I think online dating creates a whole slew of problems when it comes to expectations of it. I'm really shocked to learn that women go online, set up a date with a guy and screw him on the first date. I mean, why bother???? Most women can do that just by going out to the local bar or club..Why bother going through emails, phone calls, etc...if all you want, or you're going to put out for a one nighter?? Seems rather silly to me!
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 22 (view)
When do I say I have had cancer or do I?
Posted: 1/27/2009 1:25:36 AM
Honey, you are a SURVIVOR! You have no need to feel shame, embarrassed, or any discomfort about when you disclose this. Some on here have said wait until a few dates have passed, or you should tell them right away.... All well meaning, but not right, or wrong.

I'm a breast cancer survivor and I am proud, so proud and happy to be alive that I don't care one iota when someone finds out anymore. It's been almost 6 yrs since I was diagnosed and yes, in case you are wondering...I had the same surgery as you had. So, I know first hand the questions and issues you are facing, dating again...after such a life changing event.

You don't have to tell anyone about the cancer until you are ready. I used to think, (the nearer it was to my fight against it) that I HAD to tell someone, or else I'd be a 'fake'. I used to think 'They have a right to know, in case they don't want to date me, considering I had a life threatening illness and I could die - although I never entertained THAT idea) Well, let me explain this....

If you had allergic reaction to shellfish when you were 10, and you went into anaphylactic shock, nearly died, but survived..what are the chances you'd be a 'fake' if you didn't tell someone you almost died from a food allergy (that could happen to you again)??? Slim to none. Same thing here. We all don't have to reveal everything about ourselves immediately..Part of growing in a relationship is learning about one another, right?

Secondly, for those who want to KNOW "Would I date someone who's at risk for a recurrence" and "I have a right to know that, and make my own choice" that I say this..."Heart disease is a killer and often said to be the silent killer. Many who have it don't know they have it until they have a massive MI" (some never know they have it and simply die from ventricular fibrillation, the end result of a catastrophic cardiac event.
Now, would you, or anyone expect to know whether a potential date has high blood pressure, high cholesterol, etc...No, most don't go around asking that stuff or demand to know it...

In essence, the same goes for YOUR medical history. If you're not at the point where you can shout to the world I AM A SURVIVOR and I'M PROUD OF IT!! So be it. That's okay and understandable. You don't owe anyone that information, not until you feel comfortable giving it out.

Lastly, because you had are physically changed from it, you will most likely want to tell someone about that, should intimacy arise. My suggestion there, you'd be better off telling someone about your history BEFORE you get to that point. So as to avoid the inevitable discomfort and to encourage understanding and compassion, from a man.

Incidentally, 99% of the guys I've met, dated, had a relationship with, etc...have been extremely understanding, actually 'in awe' of me as a survivor, and often very compassionate.

So Sista.....embrace yourself as a survivor, for being brave and think of this as a small issue, when it comes to casual dating (I will acknowledge, it can get difficult at a certain level in the relationship, but not when it comes to telling...if you know what I mean ;)....
Give yourself a rest. You have already suffered from something devastating. You deserve a break from it. DO NOT ALLOW yourself to be pressured by the issue at hand.
Tell when it feels right. Not before, for anyone's sake. There is no right time. There is no wrong time, only as I said - an appropriate time at which you will want to address the intimacy of it....and IT, like a personal and extremely variable thing..

God Bless ya, and you'll be in my prayers for continued health and good fortune ahead!

Note after reading your profile - I would rethink your comment about NO ONE ON MOOD ALTERING DRUGS need apply...whatever the wording was...because, as an RN, I can tell you, there are millions of people out there on one type or another of mood altering drugs...and that comment, sort of makes you appear quick to judge and dismiss, something you don't want anyone to do to you...if that is your preference, I'd take it out of your profile and just make that clear when you speak to someone, either on the phone or email...but to put that out there, in that particular way, seems...I don't know...harsh? unsympathetic maybe? I could be wrong, but I'd take it out, especially if you hope people would be understanding and compassionate in your situation. That's imho
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 122 (view)
You call this Dating?
Posted: 1/27/2009 12:59:26 AM
I'd have to agree with the quote

I agree with this poster. First off, (and here comes the food snob in me) I don't do chain restaurants (too many children running around and never any good wine) , buffets (I don't need a whole restaurant touch and sneeze on my food) or fast food places in my personal life. If a guy told me he wanted to meet me at one, date canceled. I'm not saying it has to be an expensive place, but it better have good food. All of the aforementioned, do not have food I would eat. I live in the NYC area and if the best thing a guy could come up with was a slice from the local pizzaria, then I it's a done deal. It's a wrap. BTW, Pizza Hut is disgusting on so many levels. That's the pizza snob in me coming out. Oh and Olive Garden isn't even remotely similar to italian food!

There was another thread and a pizza date and the guy didn't pay for the girls food. Come on guys. If you can't flip the bill for that, then really, are you expecting to impress someone you are meeting?

I don't live in NYC, but nonetheless, my first thought was "Why did she agree to go out to a pizza place, for a first meet/date?" I looked at your profile and from what little I could discern, you seem smart, attractive, etc...about the same age as myself and I know I personally would absolutely laugh at a guy if he wanted to take me to pizza hut, or meet at pizza hut, for our first date/meeting. It's soooo cheesy (no pun intended). Almost like you're back in high school ?! Obviously this guy seemed to be missing the dough in his pizza, but you have to be a little more selective, I the future. If you want to do the online dating thing....I would suggest not going to dinner or to eat, for a first date/meet. Keep it short and simple. Some say coffee, I prefer going out for a drink.
Sharing a meal together just locks you in to a longer date, when you might just want to run the hell out of there as soon as you see the person. And honestly, I wouldn't expect every guy on a dating site to take me to Smith and Wolensky for a steak dinner the first time we meet, so short of a decent dinner like that, why bother with a meal...(he might as well have taken you to McDonald's!

Now, say you have an afternoon meeting, such as one in a park on a nice summer day...coupled with a stroll in the city, something like that...and he suggests you stop for a slice a pizza, that's different....but this guy was just......nuts. Weird. Cheap. Strange. You name it. Not a good representative of the men out there. Not at all.

I'd have raced him to the door, before I paid that check, hopefully sticking out my heel to trip him on the way. Don't get discouraged by him. There are plenty of frogs out there, but this one was a freak.

Good luck and keep your chin up!
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 137 (view)
High maintenance definitions
Posted: 1/27/2009 12:41:40 AM
I'm unable to sleep and completely bored, so to amuse myself, I read through this post.
(probably 'cause I was once called 'high maintenance' by a male nurse, whom I had just met, literally less than 5 minutes before he made the comment)
I often to this day, wondered how he came to that impression so quickly?? I was baffled and after reading this thread, I am only partially enlightened. I CAN only think of one reason, as stated by others on here why he said that....

I was wearing make-up that day, along with a hat, gloves and a scarf (hey, I'm in Philly and it was cooooold outside!) I've noticed in my 15 yrs of experience as an RN, that most nurses DO NOT wear much make-up to work, if any at all. At least not in my line of work (as a visiting, home care nurse). Most care very little about their appearance, for some strange reason, in MY experience (other nurses out there, please do NOT bash me for this, this is only what I've observed)

I was really upset by this 'label', since I always considered 'high maintenance' to mean the excessive need to lavish oneself with material things. Operative words being "LAVISH ONESELF". I, certainly don't fall into that criteria. (admittedly, I do LOVE my shoes, and handbags and am unwilling to give them up for any man ;) I thought it meant = the woman who needs a Lexus in the driveway, the Burberry strollers, the 3 carat diamond ring, etc...

That was until I dated men who constantly needed emotional reassurance of my affection, devotion, loyalty, who excessively called, non stop; 10x a day, and the incessant need to discuss our relationship. Now I know there's a label for that particular behavior. NEEDY = High Maintenance.

One thing I've yet to see in all these posts is anyone mention a some guys who have the obsessive NEED to perfect their bodies by going to the gym NON-STOP

Yeah, yeah...I know exercise is healthy, has multiple benefits and is good for the soul as well as the body....but there are many a men out there who will NOT date a woman unless she shares that desire. I think there are some who take it over the top, to the point of NEEDING perfection, thus making them high maintenance! Exercise and the gym are only one example of this....but I find it very high maintenance to try and live up to other people's habits, preferences, and their own self-expectations. They type A people (which is fine for them, but high maintenance for those of us who are more laid back) I think tend to be more high maintenance than others, and when they expect us to live up to their own standards,'s those people who drain me!

Just my .02

OMG, I am so tired I feel like I just wrote a book about this...
Very interesting thread though, Good one OP!
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 381 (view)
Whats the Best Accent you've hear that you love... and why
Posted: 1/26/2009 11:43:13 PM
Not necessarily in this order, but comes to mind as this;

Irish - talked to an Irish guy recently, very thick...was from Donegal, Ireland
and man...I must have asked him to repeat everything he said 3 times just because I LOVED hearing how he said it! LOL, I tried to find friends to introduce him to, just to hear him say his name over and over! It was hilarious!

Australian - Russell Crowe, so rugged!
Scottish - Sean Connery, no matter what he says, how old he is, music to my ears!
Southern US...e.g. Texas...Matthew McConaughey, sweet! Oh and Alabama....hearing Josh Lucas do a Southern-Alabama accent made me melt into a puddle on the floor!

Any of those accents turns me into mush! A complete and utter fool!
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 16 (view)
You gave out your number, now how long will you wait...BEFORE you'll say NO CHANCE.....
Posted: 1/26/2009 9:12:39 PM
I love what "OneMoreTimeWithFeeling" says.
I've recently adopted that philosophy myself. When a guy used to give me his number and I'd take it...I usually found myself NOT calling. For several reasons.

One; that I've got my kids, who often make it difficult for me to have a quiet conversation before they go to sleep,'s inevitably late, too late, or I'm too tired to call....and before I know it, days or a week has passed and by then, I feel awkward for not calling sooner.

Second, it gives me a better gauge to see how interested a guy is...if he's interested, I believe he'll call sooner. He'll make the effort himself. I, personally never felt comfortable in the role of 'pursuer'.
I have no problem returning calls, (within at the most, a day)... and even calling a guy once we've been 'dating'...but in reality, I'm terrible at calling. Even friends in general know this about me.

The older I get, the more I see the phone as just a means to make plans. I prefer going out and doing things, rather than simply chatting on the phone.
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 11 (view)
You gave out your number, now how long will you wait...BEFORE you'll say NO CHANCE.....
Posted: 1/26/2009 6:22:51 PM
Mr., I like that, you made a funny! Wasn't looking at it as a high maintenance kind of way...but that made me chuckle.

@CassaGo, I can see where you're coming from too. Because, come to think of it..if we're going out with friends, and we happen to meet someone we hit it off with, etc....chances are, we're not looking for more "FRIENDS", else we'd be giving our numbers out to everyone who says hello to us, or buys us a drink, right?!

I think it begs to answer the question; When do we simply forget about someone, (sans the next day due to large quantities of ETOH) in which case we can't HELP FORGETTING them). So, when do we just write them off? Usually, the circumstances that lead to someone asking another for their number, are more than just a simple "Hello, what's your name, can I have your number" (not that it's deeply meaningful either) Usually, there's some wanting on the part of both people, if phone numbers are exchanged.

I don't think it's a short fuse, per se....but more like "At what point will I simply say NO, I'm not going to be your back up plans, or your "I have nothing better to do tonite, so I'll call So and So, whom I never called, but met a month ago"!

I know me, personally, I'm debating with myself (always fun) to decide what is an acceptable amount of time to give someone a chance....before I basically say "Yeah, right...I'll go out with you.....when hell freezes over"!!

You could (and this is a big COULD..get deeper into the question, and ask what point will I say NO to being LAST CHOICE) Sure, if we do remember them, we're most likely going to remember being attracted to them, enough to give out our digits....that remains the same...but I know that a guy I met several months ago, asked for my number (he called my cell, so I had his too) and I called him....bottom line..we went back and forth with phone tag (leaving messages, but NOT talking) and eventually stopped calling each other.
If he were to call me tomorrow, I would MOST likely NOT get together with him.
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 55 (view)
Lies about cell phone
Posted: 1/26/2009 4:12:53 PM
Okay. He lied. His phone was off, you knew it was, I gather...and he tells 'a woman' to your estimation, that is was a dead battery. truth don't know WHO he was talking to, and since it was a first date, you really have NO RIGHT to know (yes, yes everyone - you ARE NOT exclusive) who he is dating/talking to, etc...
Having said that, he still lied. Right smack in front of you, he lied.

You have to square away with yourself if you're OKAY with that, or NOT?? If you aren''ve got a problem, very soon in the game. (and yes, it is a game, to an extent)

If you want to give him a chance, considering that you witnessed him telling a lie...go ahead, but go ahead very cautiously!

Now, you mentioned he said to you he left his cell in the truck....that could be very well true. I know and have SEEN a lot of guys do exactly THAT! (one thing to ponder, if he told the person on the phone "my battery was dead" and you knew it wasn't....why wouldn't he use the same LIE to YOU, when he mentioned to you it was in the truck??) Usually, liars/players use the same LIES...Food for thought...

Follow your gut, it's God's way of speaking to us. Protecting us, I like to think...

Consider his lie to this person on the phone, and proceed with CARE and CAUTION.
I wouldn't throw in the towel yet...but I certainly wouldn't give him my trust, not just yet....

Good luck!! Keep us posted!
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 7 (view)
You gave out your number, now how long will you wait...BEFORE you'll say NO CHANCE.....
Posted: 1/26/2009 3:56:59 PM
Ok, so it sounds like the women, (myself included) don't WAIT for a phone call (who has time to actually do NOTHING but wait for a call?? - especially those of us with kids, etc..)
but, I'm wondering if you'd NOT give someone a chance, simply because they took so long to call..
For example, there have been a couple of times where I gave my number out to someone, and they called me MONTHS later, and I didn't recall who they were, at first....(it's not hard to fake can sound happy to hear from them..."Oh yeah, I remember you, HOW ARE YOU!!" kind of thing...
But, given the fact that they waited so long to call, and it appeared to be out of the blue (and my gut often thought 'If you enjoyed my company so much....why did it take you 3 months to call me') I immediately ended up thinking 'he was most likely dating someone at the time and now he's not, otherwise why did he wait this long???' And therefore, I had no least not, anymore.
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 17 (view)
Alcohol and clubs versus online dating
Posted: 1/26/2009 3:48:25 PM
Statistically, I think bars/clubs will continue to be/are more successful than online dating. Sure, we've all heard from a friend of a friend of a friend, (some of us may have 1 friend) who've met their mates online, but considering that MILLIONS of people who are on dating sites, compared to the AMOUNT of people you will meet at a bar/club, the averages are much better, imho, out there in the 3D world.

While alcohol definitely clouds judgement, it often gives one the ability to be more outgoing and sociable than otherwise. Yep, 2am beer goggles come into play, but I think seeing 'a shocker' is more the exception than the rule....people tend to 'hook up' with those on the same level as them, that is, level of 8 with an 8, a 5 with a 5...
Right off the bat, you usually know if there is some level of connection or chemistry...

Online dating way more like finding a needle in a haystack....
You've got many people who will automatically deceive those with old picture, sudden loss of hair, sudden (overnight that is..) weight gain....thus being a fake right off the bat.
You've got a very good venue for 'cheating' with online's easier to fool people, for those who have that agenda (which MANY DO)
You've got people who are not at all sincere in their goals (those who go online to validate their need to be desired, but have no intention of ever meeting WHICH HAPPENS A LOT!!)
Online dating is much like a kid in a candy store....Pick and choose, almost like 'shopping' for a mate/lover (depending on what you're looking for) and negates the
human element. People will inevitably choose those who attract them physically first..(hence why most of us want to see PICS first) Out in the 3D world, you don't need a's already the kid in the candy store element is eliminated...narrowing your choices to a more realistic choice for both.
Online dating doesn't offer the 'meeting via friends venue' like bars/clubs do....
E.g..often we will meet a friend of a friend, albeit in a bar or club....and we've got a good recommendation...and we are introduced! Not many people on dating sites will try to match up someone they may meet, but aren't interested in, with a single friend. Never heard of that happening...ON THE CONTRARY, people will often meet their mates in a bar/club BUT through mutual friends!

And, who's to say that those who are doing the 'online dating thing' AREN'T doing it while drinking! Only God knows what the other person is doing on the other end of that computer!

So, while you may have MILLIONS online, the actual chances of meeting those MILLIONS are many, and what are the odds, that someone from California, meets someone from Maine, and actually go on to have a successful relationship? My guess....SLIM TO NONE!

Just my .02
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 3 (view)
You gave out your number, now how long will you wait...BEFORE you'll say NO CHANCE.....
Posted: 1/26/2009 3:27:48 PM
djchickie...not a bad approach to dating in general, where you say you write someone off right from the start. Kinda forces you to live in the moment, in the here and now..
I've had experiences where I've not recognized a phone number and didn't answer...let it go to voice mail..and had no idea who it was (didn't leave a message) a matter of fact, I ran into someone over the weekend who tried helping me find my phone when it was stolen (by calling it) and he called me about 2 weeks ago, told me he didn't leave a message and figured I didn't recognize his number...truth was, I didn't and felt awkward answering the phone, NOT knowing who it could be!
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 138 (view)
Your date knew YOU weren't the one when...
Posted: 1/26/2009 3:21:19 PM
When I text'd him a message saying 'it was so nice meeting you the other night, I'd love to see you again soon' AND we had met over 20 yrs ago! LOL....couldn't redeem myself from that one (even though my iPhone will auto suggest words, when you start typing...and changed the word 'seeing' to meeting...YUP, I kid you not, it really did that) No words could explain that. And IT WAS TRUE!!
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 1 (view)
You gave out your number, now how long will you wait...BEFORE you'll say NO CHANCE.....
Posted: 1/26/2009 3:16:19 PM
Ok this is a general question, to guys and girls alike..
This pertains to whether you've given out your number to someone whom you've 'met' online, or out in a public place. meet someone at a bar or club, they ask you for your number, proceed to dial it (in order for you to have theirs as well)...well how long will you give them, until you decide "No chance"...In that, say you don't hear from them for 1 1/2 weeks, is that too LONG, and will you not talk to them, or give them a chance? My theory is not necessarily a '3 day rule' but that a man, or woman WILL CALL relatively soon, at least within a few days IF they're INTERESTED...but say time goes by....even TWO WEEKS...would you still go out with that person, even accept their call? Or would you have already written them off in your mind because they haven't called in that long?
I realize that most people don't follow the 3 day rule, or any rules about calling...but I do wonder, at what point would you either tell that person to 'get lost' and/or just ignore their call? AND, incidentally, this is not to say one is WAITING around for a call, but just LOST OUT, NEXT !!!
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 51 (view)
So, this guy DIDN'T want to give me his number.....and it was blocked..
Posted: 12/22/2008 6:36:47 PM

For those of you who joined the thread most recently, the last time I posted was on
12-3. Yes, 12-3....almost 3 weeks ago. That translates into = not only is he obviously out of sight, but he's long been out of mind (my mind that is)

Initially, when I posted the thread, my gut told me, my spidey sense told me, something was definitely wrong . Yes, it didn't take rocket science to figure that out. Call it naivete' or ignorance, wishful thinking...whatever your choice? I always like to think that people are good, rather than deceitful jerks when I first meet them.
Some might say it's a character flaw of mine. I try to be optimistic and have learned a while ago, it's best to be 'cautiously optimistic'. That is the approach I took in this situation.

90% of you were right. The dude was and is, married. Not separated. Because I spoke to his friend for about a week and a half, it appears from what he told me that there must be some trouble in the marriage because the dude goes out every Saturday night, alone....without the wife. BUT that doesn't cut it for me. To me, married is married.
(and for those of you who say 'Big deal, he goes out every weekend, I beg to differ...ask any woman who lives with her man, or is married...when a guy goes out every weekend without his WOMAN, there is definitely, absolutely, trouble in paradise and I invite any woman to say they're comfortable with that situation. I wouldn't be at all. I've been in that situation when I was engaged and I eventually gave my fiance' the boot.
That was a symptom of a problem, a serious problem in our relationship.

Now, to bikeman...
Being that I live in a city with 1.6 million people and Bethlehem has a population of roughly me, that is a small town . Also, I was off in my initial distance's about 50 miles from where I live......If that is considered 'long distance' well...than I've had a few successful 'long distance' relationship with a couple people I dated in my life who lived in NJ. It definitely isn't easy, but it is doable. It all depends on the two people, their jobs, if they're on the road for work (I used to be) and other family obligations/factors as well. Not to mention first and foremost; how much you want to see that person...not just how often, but how much.

As for Allentown and Easton....and if you want to get technical....well...they certainly may not be small towns in numbers (pop 106 K and 26 K, respectively) but when you live in the 5th largest city in the US, and you're used to metropolitan life/area, it is......small. Very small. You mentioned 3 towns that equal approx 200K people to a city of 1.4 million .....that's 7 times the size!! (and in a pretty small geographical area too, Philly that is...very congested!) Comparitively, Bethlehem is only slightly larger than Bensalem, Pa (where Michael's is) and to me, having lived in Philly all my life....well....Bensalem is a tiny town. I know it well, lived on the border of it...and when driving down Street Rd...well it feels like to me, if you sneeze a few times, you pass it. Far from city life in Philly.

Your opinion of Michael's as a meat market. Well, if you want to get technical,'s that and more! (not sure if you're aware of this, but another known fact about Michael's is - it is home to a circle of 'swingers'. Yes, swingers. (I have knowledge from someone who has participated in those groups of swingers AND they happen to meet at Michael's on weekends, gather on the right side of the entrance once you walk in, and hang out in the booths whilst they wait for their crowd to come, and then.....they leave in packs to head out to NYC for the underground swinger/alternative nightclubs where they need not worry about being seen by others they know.

While I understand Michael's is a meat market, I often wonder why it gets that reputatation so much when there are sooooo many 'clubs' in Philly where single people gather, where there are multiple dance floors, with DJ's playing all weekend, where you'll find a dress code, and overpriced drinks. AKA 'dance club'. Of course it's not a dive bar, corner bar, tavern, or a sports bar. So because it's not any of those, it's therefore a 'meat market'? That has always puzzled me. It's not different than many other clubs that used to exist in Philly...the Barn, the 94th, Binny and Flynn's, HB's, Tailgaiters, the Trocodero, Club Maui, The Cave, Egypt, etc, etc, etc.......might as well say 'Manyunk' is a meat market too. Or Old City on a Sat night (take your pic on the place - The continental, Blue Martini) If you want to say 'meat market' you might as well include every place that has a dress code, dance floors, DJ's, multiple bars, and overpriced drinks. And these places are going to be frequented by SINGLES and cheating spouses....people who are looking to 'hook up' and people who are there to just have a fun night out with friends. When you say 'meat market' aren't you really saying 'bar scene'? And isn't that what many online daters are 'sick of'? With the exception of the aforementioned; dive bar, pubs, taverns, sports bars, and bar/restaurants, everything else is pretty much a 'meat market'. That is anywhere you put well dressed men and women, music, dancing and alcohol. What makes Micheal's any different, I don't know. Because I happen to go there often (not by choice so much as location and lack of other choices) with friends, I can honestly say I know of many who aren't there to 'hook up' and/or meet their future spouse. And I can say I know of many people who go there who would LOVE to meet someone to spend time with, and not just to simply 'hook up' for the night. I'm not on the offensive here, just hate generalizations....I know many people who've met and gone on to date someone for a while they've met at Michael's. I've even heard of a couple people who've met their spouses at Michael's....hell.....I've often see Bridal Parties there evidently looking to extend the mood after a reception...have even seen the Newlyweds there too!

What I recently learned Bikeman (and I don't know if this is what you mean by 'meat market') is that people come from great distances to Micheal's and many of them do so to get something on the side in a place where NO ONE they KNOW will see them.
(Hence the married man I met that night) I go there simply because I happen to live about 7 minutes from there by car, and it's the only place close to go to dance and dress half decently...and, you can always expect a large, diverse crowd. It can be a lot of fun watching people there....of all different ages and types. Never a dull moment there (and I've had the pleasure of meeting and making new friends there as well) It's not unusual for me to go in there and it take me a half an hour to get a drink simply because I bump into 10 people I know from there on the way to the bar and stop to chat and catch up.....
Just wanted to add that piece because 'meat market' has such a negative connotation to it, and with the right attitude, the place can be, and is, fun. And even if there are slime like the married man I met that night, there definitely are good people there as well.

Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 39 (view)
So, this guy DIDN'T want to give me his number.....and it was blocked..
Posted: 12/3/2008 5:23:40 AM
You're not the only person he's currently having sex with, that's the problem.


:stop: :stop: :stop: :stop: :stop: :stop: :stop: :stop:

I did NOT have SEX with THIS MAN.

All I did was KISS the guy. MAKE OUT with HIM. That's IT. NOTHING MORE.
We did NOT leave the bar TOGETHER

I need to clarify that. I only met him one night, and he came back to the same club 3 nights later. All of our contact, with the exception of him walking me to my car (while his friends waited by their car), took place INSIDE THE CLUB. And yeah, there was kissing, (more than just a peck on the cheek, I'll admit) BUT no more than that.

And NO, we did NOT go the any bathroom stall, so get 'yer mind's out of the gutter.


(Now whether his wife considers that 'cheating', is up to her, I suppose - since I was told by him, he was separated for a YEAR - And it's not unheard of to kiss someone other than your estranged wife of a year, many truly separated people do date, and do kiss - HE ON THE OTHER HAND, is guilty of entirely another thing......)


Yes, as a matter of fact, his friend is single. He told me when he mentioned that he asked the guy I was calling (his best friend) "Oh, are you setting me up with someone" and his friend (the married guy) said "No, she'd be calling for me". And the friend proceeded to tell me "I'm always asking _____ if he knows anyone single or to introduce me to someone". Funny thing is.....the guy kind of expressed some interest in me on the phone.
(Now I know my spidey sense is fully operational and working properly, yes...I was able to tell and oddly enough, his friend sounded really, really, nice and understanding - not bothered at all by being put into the situation)

Now, if I was REALLY analytical as everyone on this thread has been saying - I could really read into that one and wonder if the 'married guy' I met intentionally gave me his best SINGLE friend's phone number for some other reason???? BUT that would be far too much reading into it..ya know?
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 35 (view)
So, this guy DIDN'T want to give me his number.....and it was blocked..
Posted: 12/3/2008 12:00:21 AM
In case anyone checked back to see..

I called the number the guy gave me.

Turns out, HE gave me the number of his BEST FRIEND....who happens to have the same name, so when I said "Hi _____" and he said "Hi" can imagine my surprise when the guy said "I'm not the _____ you're calling to talk to" ??????? OMG! So, his friend tells me he preemptively called him to tell him "A girl from Philly might call, I doubt it, but just in case, 'heads up'".

Turns out the friend was a pretty nice guy (on the phone) anyhow. Talk about an awkward moment, huh? Nothing like putting the best friend in the middle.
Well, best friend asked me "Do you know _____ 's situation" and I said "Yeah, he's separated" and he replied "No, he's married"Said he has NO idea about his friends 'situation' currently....only that he had told him about me. Descriptively, I might add.

....'Nuff said...

So, the majority of you were right. I suppose my spidey sense was right too.

And....another one bites the dust!!


OH AND PS - FOR those you who thought I meant that I 'spent the night' with this guy. I meant that I spent the night hanging out with him IN THE BAR. I did not leave with this guy. We did NOT spend any time together, alone. JUST AN FYI.
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 33 (view)
So, this guy DIDN'T want to give me his number.....and it was blocked..
Posted: 12/1/2008 9:46:58 PM
OK, this is going to be a looooong reply, but I'm going to go ahead & say it anyway (read it only if you're really interested....LOL) There are some things I'd like to address.
(and please take note - this is not a sarcastic reply, since it's impossible for me to convey my tone here, I wanted to state that)


I'm not quite sure that this qualifies as 'drama', considering I merely posted about a guy's number coming up blocked COUPLED with the response I got when I asked him for HIS phone number . Each question separately, to post about, & analyze, might be a bit over the top....BUT I posted to question to see if others got the spidey sense that I did? Or if, objectively, I was being paranoid.
I posted this 'cause I have not dated a S E P A R A T E D man (my own rule) since back in '92, when it resulted in a negative outcome. If it's 'drama' for me to reply back to those responses, I suppose some could say 'drama'. But, I consider it just acknowledging I'm following the thread & appreciative of the input, as well as offering some points I may have left out, or others brought up....

My advice.... TAKE MORE TIME getting to know someone before spending the evening with them ....then when you see the red flags, you can just walk away.
(again, NOT sarcasm here)

Question; How can I take more time getting to know someone before spending the evening with him in this particular case? I met him at a club, not online, & he met me at the same club 3 nights later....I didn't have his email (we didn't exchange emails when we met) & at the end of the night I met him, he asked me for my number, I didn't ask for his. He called to tell me he was going back to the club near me, was I going? & we met up there (I was going there with or without him, as I wrote b4)
Ironically, had I asked for his number that first night, I probably wouldn't have had the chance to get to know him considering he was so reluctant to give up his number!!!! And this most likely never would have been posted since it would have only been 'one meet'. End of story, which it may be now.
I'm not sure what I could've done differently that you're suggesting??
The point is - that's exactly what I WAS trying to do, get to know him better. And NOW, after his reluctance, to see if he's worth getting to know more ?

It doesn't get much simpler than that. There was literally no way I could get to know him better before spending the evening with him, since I did NOT have his email, nor his phone number. Remember....he came to 'my club', in my hometown. I did NOT seek him out, go to his neighborhood... I just did my thing, like I always do on a Saturday night. Are you saying I should not have spent the evening with him? After seeing him there? I'm confused on that comment.

BTW, This situation IS NOT nearly as close to the other time when I dated that other separated guy, 17 yrs ago. Then, I knew, by visible proof, the guy was DEFINITELY separated for those of you who wonder why I'm breaking my rule...

THIS kind of behavior is not healthy for you or your kids.

I appreciate the concern for my kids, but they're not involved AT ALL, in my dating life.
And I don't see the relevance here to them? I don't invite guys over unless I'm exclusive with someone, established, & confident it's significant. And even then, I gradually introduce them. For all the dating I've done in 6 1/2 yrs, they've met 3. And 2 of them, only once ( as far as they knew, they were merely male friends of mine -
they are accustomed to seeing me with male friends, as the majority of my closest friends are male - why (I'm sure you're wondering ;)...I have 2 brothers!!
My kids have only seen me with 1 boyfriend in all those years.

As for healthy for me?
Not sure that's 'healthy' is the appropriate word here. Analytical, yup. Paranoid, maybe? (that's one of the questions I was asking).Just trying to determine if I should give this
guy a chance & see him again? Careful. Cautious. Informed 'as arpeggia stated'. IMHO, it's unwise to make decisions without all the facts. Especially those concerning my time & efforts. If seeking the opinions of unbiased strangers is obsessive, then I would venture to say these forums are full of obsessive people and I'm in the majority. After all, when we reply to a thread, don't we look at the other replies, read them to see if someone else said what we're going to say? Hell, some of us even check out the OP's profile before posting & take that in consideration. I'd go as far as to say that those of us who sit & read about other people's dating problems on the internet & then think about it enough to reply, could indicate over-analyzing & reading into a lot of stuff, as you said. I do believe though, there are some out there in POF forum land who do want to help, which is the sole reason I post this thread.
Some would say (like my late best friend, may he rest in peace) that IS loving drama. (he always thought forums on a dating site, chatting, etc..was the epitome of drama)


See above; I'm not sure I'm getting this?? (must reiterate, not sarcastic here)
I posted about a situation. Sounded fishy. I got some replies where the majority said one
thing & the minority, something different. I've read the posts, replied to some.
1 person brought up I may have 'unresolved issues' relating to my ex hubby who cheated. I pondered that thought.....& agreed maybe my 'paranoia' is a result of that???
Don't know. I'm not a psychologist. Nonetheless, it's a valid opinion. Good point. Point

For those of y'all who post on threads, you've got to know, come on now...other points are brought up 99% of the time, based on all the different types of people out there. Threads can take a life on of their own.....& too often go off topic.

I love to bounce ideas off people who are objective & they can give great advice sometimes. There's a lot of wisdom out there in the world to be shared.

I just don't understand why (and I don't mean this offensively, but in reality) people start making judgments about OP's & don't just answer the initial question posted, OR just reply to another post related to the OP? One POF'r stated something about 'drama' in the first page of this thread and I didn't respond to it. I'm responding now BECAUSE - - if you really think about it.....POF forums are nothing but people reading about others drama/problems, replying to that drama/problem, thinking about that drama/problem, etc...right? If you're going to pull out the 'drama' card...then ask yourselves this...IS READING & RESPONDING IN FORUMS NOT DRAMA in web format? How is perusing & participating in the forums on a dating site any different than say....attending a Jerry Springer show?? Basically, for a lot of ppl, you're sifting through the forum/drama pages, checking out titles of a subject/drama that interests you, & by answering, you involve yourself automatically, to a small extent, in the drama of it all.
LOL, come on now...instead of watching a TV show, it's just reading the same thing, essentially. Wouldn't it be fair to say it's almost like reading a celebrity tabloid sans
the celebrity?! I have NEVER understood that???

In closing, yes, those of you who think I'm now getting defensive or 'not liking the answers I got' you're right... I don't. But not the one's who said 'Run forest Run' or 'bail out now he's married' (which kind of sux).....Or even 'give him a chance'. It's the one's that immediately label me, for asking about a minor situation & seeking some 'good advice'. Very soon, this 'minor' situation will be resolved. I'll either take a chance, or never speak to him again. Either way, it won't require more advice
in this thread. Once my decision is made, I think I can take it from there....

Finally, I think now it's time for me to 'Run Forest Run' from this thread. All kidding aside, I asked the question, it seems to have gotten past the point of productive advice...I got some various replies & will now make up my mind on what I will do, by weighing those answers & making the smartest decision I can, on my own.

So thank you all. I do appreciate those honest opinions. They were definitely productive and helpful. For those of you who post in the future, or stop by to see how it worked out..
Not sure if I'll reply. I think most of what could be said, has been said.
I'm rarely on the forums anymore. I only stopped by when I began this thread for a short stay to get some purely objective opinions & I definitely got what I came for.
Honestly, I take long breaks between my threads...I'm busy out there in the tangible world living my life to the fullest, trying to have a great time, avoiding drama as much as I can.....Perhaps for those who I spoke to via email from this thread, I'll give y'all
an update....until then...Cheers, thanks, & have a great night!!!

Oh and PS, Yes I know I can 'talk' a lot. No, it didn't take me forever to type this. From past experience of emails and chatting, I acquired one good typing!

Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 11 (view)
Maybe you can make sense of this...
Posted: 12/1/2008 12:20:18 PM
After having read your thread and the others, I would venture to say - most of the responses on here are right on.
One thing I will add;
Sorry OP, but will buy you jewelry even if they're not in love with you
(trust me, my ex-fiance' bought me an ENGAGEMENT ring just to shut me up)
When I expressed I wanted to get married again, on more than one occasion, he heard me.
When I expressed I wanted 'a ring' for Christmas, he heard me. I got the ring....
but never got the 'engagement' to follow, in that we never planned the wedding AND we were together for 5 (yes FIVE) years. In fact, we bought a house together and had a son.....
(all the appearances of having a life together)

BUT, in reality, I was most likely a long term f***buddy for him. That's how he behaved.
And it took me a long, long time to finally ask him to leave. I had to summon up all the courage I could in the world and face it alone, divorced, now with 2 kids, and lost dreams...
It was THE hardest thing I had to do in my life. Walk away from someone I loved. Deeply.

You can spin this any way you want, but this guy is confused. About being alone himself and he's messing with your heart. Just because he's jealous when you're with another man, doesn't = love. It equals = someone else is messing with my security blanket, my booty. My FWB.

It seems to be a bona fide FWB.
You're not pitiful or stupid. Don't be ashamed or embarrassed, it happens to the best of us. Just try your hardest to start distancing yourself from him, cutting the ties, because obviously you want more than he's willing to offer. And you know what....that's just not good enough, FOR YOU.

Tell yourself you deserve better, it works for me ;)

Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 25 (view)
So, this guy DIDN'T want to give me his number.....and it was blocked..
Posted: 12/1/2008 6:55:18 AM

And, if this little town of Bethelem is very small, that might be why he drives a bit further to this particular bar...if it's a regular haunt of yours as well, maybe it's just one of the nicer bars in your/his area? Maybe his friends live in your town? There could be lots of explanations for it...don't over-analyze, lol!

Just an UPDATE;

The little town of Bethlehem is a VERY SMALL town. It's 'out in the sticks' as some would say. The club MICHAEL'S, is very, very, well known, from people all over. It's advertised on Philadelphia's radio stations. Very poplular because of that. It's not unusual AT ALL to go there and find that a majority of the people who are there on a given night are from out of town, so to speak (in fact, I've NEVER met anyone from Philly there, always from some little town.....the club borders Philadelphia, easy to get to..without the traffic. In fact, because I live 1/4 mile from the border, I go there frequently AND unfortunately there are NO OTHER clubs nearby where you can dance, that draws a somewhat dressy crowd. It's the ONE alternative to driving into Center City Philadelphia, that spans a 15 mile radius.....
(there's also no cover charge, which is a huge draw)

POF has had events there. There was one Oct 13th I think? And so, people from all over POF were invited. Not sure of the turn out, but a friend told me (who lives in another tiny little town) that hardly any from Philly were there....

Incidentally, yeah, I know I'm over analyzing this. I acknowledge that. Yup, I do that.
(I blame it on my sign - I'm a Virgo and we over analyze everything.......)

But I'm really glad that people have chimed in on this and appreciate all the input. Whether it's to say 'RUN forest RUN' or 'Give him a chance'...

Opinions do help!

Cheers, y'all and TY

Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 17 (view)
So, this guy DIDN'T want to give me his number.....and it was blocked..
Posted: 11/30/2008 4:45:04 PM

You're absolutely right. I'm sure I'm just here attempting to have my suspicions validated by all of you strangers.

That happens when you accuse your hubby (ex) of cheating for FIVE years and calls you the crazy one And all the while you KNEW it because of your spidey sense but you had some unscrupulous liar telling you YOU were WRONG. And, one day, by acting (yeah, you might say) crazy by breaking the lock in his office room and you find all the letters, receipts for Vics Secret stuff NOT your size that you NEVER got....well, sometimes you want reassurance.

My spidey sense has always been there. My my silly little inherent belief that people are fundamentally good, has always been my weakness.

Incidentally, this situation could be occurring whether I met him 4 days ago, 4 weeks ago, or 4 months ago.....the difference is....I'm hopefully, looking to save myself the trouble of being here in 4 months....saying the same thing

PS, Aren't the forums for analyzing stuff anyway? I mean, you're essentially asking strangers to offer their .02 on a situation....and sometimes the best times to ask these things are early on....before one invests time and/or worse; feelings..

I want y'all to rest assured. If the dude doesn't call me again, not only do I have my answer BEFORE I spend weeks or more getting to know him, but by next week or the week after that...I'll most likely be thinking about the next guy I've met....

Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 15 (view)
So, this guy DIDN'T want to give me his number.....and it was blocked..
Posted: 11/30/2008 4:02:53 PM
Okey dokey y'all...
I'm just going to play devil's advocate for minute here. (not to my benefit, cause I'm still spidey ;) BUT..

He called me before he came down to the club we met at. Ummm, I'd say it was around 9 ish when he called me and told me 'My friends and I are heading to Michael's tonite (name of club) and I wanted to know if you were going'...

Naturally, I said yes, since I was already planning to go with 5 or 6 friends of mine.

Now, here's a thought (just a blip on my radar)....IF, if..he was already going to the same bar with his friends, then why risk calling ME and asking if I was going, since he was already going AND calling me would only increase his risk for being caught by said wifey...??
I'm thinking this is a somewhat of a big risk (only cause I KNOW...I was once on the other end of checking those cell phone records and suspicious numbers that I didn't know my EX hubby was calling (very important tool in catching a spouse cheating BTW ;) invaluable tool it is...(and yup, I've been on both ends of the suspicious phone call on the cell bill - I called them - LOL, but NEVER thought to use the 'ol "I'm calling from Verizon to verify this number, blah, blah, blah...GREAT IDEA !!!) Me, I just hung up when a woman's voice answered. That was enough for ME! AND I've been on the end of having several 'wives, g/f's, significant others, partners, etc... CALL ME too!

(I even had a 19 yr old of a 35 yr old man I was seeing call me and WANT TO BEAT ME UP for seeing her man!! BUT THEN SHE SAID "You're too old, I'll get my mom to beat you up!!!) NO LIE!!! Yuppers, I have seen much of it all too!

I think I just hate that meeting someone you 'hit it off' with is so freakin hard anymore.
And, having read stories here on POF about how separated people ARE and can be really separated (of course written by those S E P A R A T E D people themselves (I really like that spaces between the letters deal there, too funny!) I guess, I suppose, I wanted to, hope for the benefit of the doubt.

Ha, I think they call it W I S H F U L thinking!

Just a thought...
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 13 (view)
So, this guy DIDN'T want to give me his number.....and it was blocked..
Posted: 11/30/2008 2:25:52 PM
Thanks for the input everyone, much appreciated.

@the mcguffin;
Yeah, I know 4 days ago. Truth be told and as a matter of fact...I have a pretty good track record for adopting the 'I don't give a crap about *enter whatever, whomever here* AND unfortunately have become pretty good at it...I don't like to waste time on people who aren't worth my time.....but, it's not really about 'just a guy met 4 days ago' as it is about a couple things here;

1. trusting your gut (as so many, many people say you should do)
2. trust in general (some people are too trusting, some don't trust at all, some think it should be earned)
3. Negativity (personally, I am usually 110 % positive about things, and my outlook on things, but that can't and doesn't always apply, nor should it) Especially in this situation.
4. It raised the question and self imposed rule I have of my own on NOT dating a separated guy (and this could be just another reason why OR pose the question of WHY NOT) -
There a a TON of threads on dating separated people, posted by those themselves who are separated, and those who will/won't This thread is a good example of why there are those of us who will NOT, I repeat NOT date a separated person....and the thread could be a good reference of that
5. I never even wanted to ask him about it, SINCE by nature, I am not usually suspicious
after meeting a guy 4 days later BUT, one of my friends who was there last night, who recently was on the receiving end of a disappearing act from a guy, NAGGED me to ask this guy about it....since I gave her advice to forget about the guy who disappeared on her....
(and mind you, she only went out with him once in August and once in November, and although exchanged emails numerous times, he was really giving her the run around and a ton of BS which was ridiculous to believe) well..she has spent the last two weeks and countless hours (literally, no exaggeration) analyzing and repeating every single detail of her pseudo relationship with this guy and has now spread her negativity to ME, which is now, annoying me. (and I'm not sure if that has something to do with my suspicions???)

Honestly, yeah....I only met him 4 days ago. I don't know him from Adam, may very well never see or hear from him again, making all this a mute point, brings t he issues I mentioned above out in the open....for anyone to chime in on and possibly make it easier to weed people out early on....which so many of us in this crazy dating world should do. It ain't easy meeting people (duh, perhaps that's why so many people are on POF) and me personally, because of that...I want to make the best choices I can.

I'm a very trusting person, but also have a really good spidey sense. Sometimes that makes a bad combination and creates confusion. Reassurance helps.

Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 9 (view)
So, this guy DIDN'T want to give me his number.....and it was blocked..
Posted: 11/30/2008 12:16:11 PM
'Nother question

Does anyone think I was 'wrong' to question this guy? Just cuz considering he only called me once and it was really only the first time we got together since we met....

(that's the part where I wonder if I'm too paranoid)

I once had a thing with a separated guy where (ironically) he did end up getting divorced 6 months after I gave him the boot. I gave him the boot because I didn't want to be 'the other woman' gathering dust into my golden years waiting for him to actually get divorced......
He'd always go 'back to his wife' when she beckoned' and then come back to me when she'd bail again....and five months later, I found myself fallin in I split....
(This is one of the reasons I don't know what the hell to think or believe in this situation)

Just another thought.

Thanks y'all. (I love saying that, being from the East ;)
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 8 (view)
So, this guy DIDN'T want to give me his number.....and it was blocked..
Posted: 11/30/2008 12:02:05 PM
Hi *cowboy*

I actually, literally, just did a search via the web and typed in the city of the 'little town of Bethlehem' and THE AREA CODE IS CORRECT. The 610 area code IS in Bethlehem.
LOL, I thought I knew it all

I was wrong about that one. OOPS.

And, incidentally, the other guy who mentioned about him asking me about being married and not if I'm single....I did forget to mention (and this is something I do all the time)

I WEAR a ring that resembles a wedding band on my left finger. It has a rolling diamond in it and it's thick. So, when we were dancing the first night we met..he actually told me that on of the reasons he didn't approach me earlier was because he thought I WAS married.
He told me 'your ring'....'it looks like a wedding band'.

Now, I've never heard that before, but who's to say others haven't thought it before and nonetheless approached me....

Oh, and when he gave me his number......(like a jackasss, I might add) I EMPHATICALLY told him "I don't call guys". Reason being; I will only call a guy if he calls me....or to return a guy's call..
Why you might ask? Well...I suppose I can blame my Dad for that one. He drilled it into me that 'a lady never calls a man'....of course that was 20 years ago (he passed on 17 yrs ago) but he instilled that in me big time! And ever since I've always, always had a hard time dialing those numbers when I am given them!! It's like jumping a huge hurdle for me to call a guy out of the blue. I was raised by parents who were from the 'greatest generation' they know.....around the time of WWII....and it's still hard to this day to undo what my dad engraved in my head....

So, now that I told him last night that I NEVER call a guy (and added 'I won't call you, trust me') it might be a little, teensy bit awkward to call him now.......

Oh crap, did I blow it out of proportion??? Ugh. I'm confused.

I guess maybe I won't bail 'right away' and see if I give him the rope, so to speak, if he hangs himself.....not a bad idea cowboy.....ty for your opinion
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 5 (view)
So, this guy DIDN'T want to give me his number.....and it was blocked..
Posted: 11/30/2008 11:19:32 AM
Wow, life sucks sometimes huh?
Especially when our subconscious tells us something we don't want to hear.
God, I hate that!!! LOL...

I had a feeling about this...and it's been pretty much what you've all said so far.

At least now I'm not feeling 100% crazy/paranoid!

Oh and Sortin - I never thought of that question "Are you married" as opposed to "Are you single" Good point! TY
Joined: 2/3/2006
Msg: 56 (view)
First Impressions of their house, dealbreaker- what a slob!
Posted: 11/30/2008 11:13:44 AM
I love this interesting..

and I have to reply to codemonkey

The other side to this is that intellectual people are often messy. Not unsanitary per-say, but clutter bugs. When finished with one reference / disk / piece of hardware / etc... they will simply toss it in the first available empty space still within arms reach. This is because they do not have A.D.D. Their attention is squarely fixed upon their task, and to divert that attention would be detrimental to the task.

When this type of person is on task no meal, person, automatic gunfire, hurricane, or screaming wounded antelope can divert their attention.

I am absolutely the 'intellectual type' and my other half (of myself that
Therefore, when I'm not being 'creative' (i.e. doing my crafts, as in wreaths, scrapbooking, photography, etc...whatever I'm into for the day, week, or month) I am cluttered. 100% absolutely cluttered. As described in the quote above. Now, my house is not filthy. I clean it. The dishes, bathrooms, floors, etc...but I will never pass a white glove test. And I don't care to either. I'd rather be living life, seizing every moment, then sucking the fibers out of my carpet like my neighbor does from compulsive vacuuming!!

I also have two very messy boys, and an 80 yr old mom who can't see from bilateral cataracts to pick up after, which makes my life 10 times more difficult.

Also, to make it harder...I have Fibromyalgia, and Vertigo. Two disorders that make it extremely difficult to even get out of bed many days. Now granted, those two disorders don't afflict everyone with a messy house....but that is a HUGE contributor to my life.
It's hard to bend down and pick stuff up, or even look up to reach up to a shelf for me, without my head literally spinning.....and the days where my Fibro is bad.....well...hah...if I can make it OUT of bed, it's an accomplishment!

As once poster said "never judge anyone until you've walked a mile in their shoes" (or something like that)

Incidentally, PRE Fibro, PRE Vertigo, PRE Kids, and PRE 'creativity'...I was insanely neat and organized. I couldn't stand lint on my clothes in my closet, which used to be arranged according to color! Just as my shirts in my drawers were....

Additionally, since I was a home care nurse for almost 10 yrs in the fifth largest city in the US...I've been into a gazillion homes....from pristine to pig sties! You really can't judge a person's 'mental' state, or personality from their home because you really just don't know other contributing factors. That's just wrong. IMHO

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