Show ALL Forums
Posted In Forum:

Home   login   MyForums  
 
 Author Thread: Not looking for hookups anymore
 Woodrock
Joined: 8/1/2018
Msg: 59 (view)
 
Not looking for hookups anymore
Posted: 9/11/2018 1:36:01 PM

I think the OP was more about when women say they don't want hookups, yet usually go ahead and hook up with the type of guys they say they hate... that stuff confuses alot of guys. It used to confuse me as well.


Yes this.

Quite a few of the other comments that have just been made seem to have nothing to do with what I'm saying, so not sure where that's coming from.

I have said a few times now that I don't have a problem with how someone's behaved in the past, or even in the present, as long as what they say and what they do are consistent. Obviously you can't control what other people do and say but you can learn to make better judgments for yourself, without making a judgement about other people as a whole, and I'm quite happy that I've managed to do that.

I don't mind if this thread goes in a different direction or if it dies, but if someone responds to something I've said and I think there's a misunderstanding then I'll try and correct that - don't think it's fair to say I'm going on about anything.
 Woodrock
Joined: 8/1/2018
Msg: 53 (view)
 
Not looking for hookups anymore
Posted: 9/11/2018 11:58:18 AM

Somehow, I don't think that it is as simple as all that.


Yes, you've said it for me. The question is why would someone wanting a relationship make a point of going on about their past sexual exploits, especially on the first few dates? It's either game playing or a lack of emotional intelligence, and having had this conversation on this thread, the consensus seems to be that it's more often the latter.


In essence, she is saying that he isn't as attractive as any of the long toms that came before. The only reason that this situation exists at all is because these others possess a talent that he lacks. He resents being asked to give his all only to be cucked when the next bad boy comes along.


I kind of get what you're saying here, though I don't quite agree. To me it's more a case that there's a type of guy they're attracted to, and that's fine, but they've convinced themselves that they want something else that they'll never get from those guys, and so they go after men that will give them what they think they want. It's a lack of self-awareness. I'd say they are easily swayed by bravado rather than real character or actual talent, but that's an opinion. I don't want to downplay confidence either, it's a good quality to have.


There are so many of these profiles in his demographic that he is starting to see a wasteland all around him. He can't get what he wants because it just doesn't exist for him nor did it ever. He has to come to terms with that fact.


There's some truth in this. Knowing what to look for and what to avoid has helped and I think my last few dates since making the original post have gone much better. I've been able to have the kind of mature conversation about past relationships that I would expect from someone in their 30's and understanding why someone's changed their lifestyle and what they're looking for, without unnecessary detail, helps me to understand where they're coming from and has made me feel closer to them.

Just by virtue of simple logic, the attractive, emotionally intelligent, women who are interested in relationships are probably in relationships because they know how to make them last. While the dating pool as you age becomes increasingly saturated with people who for some reason or another haven't managed to make past relationships work. People can learn from their past mistakes though, so I'm also optimistic that there are still women out there who have made progress in who they are and how they live, as I hope I have.
 Woodrock
Joined: 8/1/2018
Msg: 32 (view)
 
Not looking for hookups anymore
Posted: 8/26/2018 2:58:47 AM
Sometimes guys are a bit clueless, they want a serious relationship while also keeping the chemistry alive. I've been dumped because I was too boring and because I seemed to only be interested in sex - it took me a while to find the balance, largely because every woman has her own preferences. Sometimes I feel women expect men to "just know" this stuff, and we don't. It sounds like what you're saying, what we've all been saying, is that whatever you want you need to do it with respect.


I would much rather find someone who has had their fun, and is now ready to settle down


Thanks for adding your perspective, I can see how this view also has a lot of validity to it. What made me agree with siisaa was the "blindly expect" qualification.

If, as a woman, you feel like a man has done something which means you need to cut off communication with him, would you try and explain where you felt he'd over stepped the mark first?
 Woodrock
Joined: 8/1/2018
Msg: 26 (view)
 
Not looking for hookups anymore
Posted: 8/25/2018 7:09:21 AM

Most often, a man will dump a woman when casual sex is all that she has to offer.



Most women want relationships but many women will lie to a guy or to themselves that they just want something casual.


Taking these two comments together I think that there might be a dynamic where a both the man and the woman start with an intention to enter a relationship. The woman, in this case, thinks that sex is the way to make herself attractive, the man gets interested on the sexual aspects of the relationship, and only later realises that they aren't compatible long-term for some reason. They've both made mistakes, but I think in this case they were honest mistakes and they just need to develop a little insight.

I think it's unfair to say that the woman had nothing else to offer, it's just they were never right for each other and the sex became a distraction while they were getting to know each other. Sometimes it takes a lot of chances to get things right, again I think it's about accepting responsibility for your own part in what's happened. If someone's truly done that, then it almost doesn't matter what past they've had.


What is the exact behaviour women are doing that is the issue?


It's not really possible to answer that because, as I'm discovering going through this discussion, there are a lot of different things going on. If I were to reduce it I would have to make it apply to both men and women:

*** What a person says is not in line with their behaviour ***

There's a saying, "you can't con an honest man [person]". So if a man, let's say, is having trouble with dating women there's probably some error that he is also making - and vice-versa with the genders. I was trying to examine what elements of someone's profile might give indications that something in-authentic was going on (words and deeds not in accord).

Another truism is to look at the outcome of someone's actions if you want to understand their motives. So I would look at the outrage expressed by some women at men's behaviour and the way they might accuse a man of just being "angry because he's not more successful with women" (paraphrasing). First, it dismisses reasonable objections a man might have to a woman's behaviour without any real argument behind it, and second, if the man reacts emotionally to the attack, the effect will be to make him more insecure, more focused on conquering women to prove his manliness, and easier to manipulate. There are a number of profiles I've seen that reflect this with phrases like "need a real man", "someone who can handle a real woman", "must have... [long list of ridiculous superficial demands]", all of which presumably are to get men to jump through hoops for them. An alpha male never would, and wouldn't need to, do this. In fact, any two people going into a relationship that benefits both of them wouldn't do that, it's not the way you'd conduct any sort of honest negotiation.
 Woodrock
Joined: 8/1/2018
Msg: 22 (view)
 
Not looking for hookups anymore
Posted: 8/25/2018 1:26:48 AM

What's wrong with writing they don't want hookups if they don't want hookups?


It was just a suggestion, but I think I explained quite clearly that I felt that a positively framed profile would be more successful, based on what other people have also said.


Unless your issue is that you want hookups and them saying they don't want hookups means you lost your chance?


No, it seems you've completely misunderstood everything I've been saying about honesty. If I wanted a hookup I would say so, then you can get an honest reply and you don't waste anyone's time or hurt anyone's feelings. If someone has stated clearly and honestly what they want on their profile then that's a good thing, you know where you stand. Hookups are easy, you're not investing time, energy, and emotion into them the same way you would if you wanted a relationship.

From my original post:


Personally, I don't mind what approach women take, everyone is free to choose what they want for themselves
 Woodrock
Joined: 8/1/2018
Msg: 20 (view)
 
Not looking for hookups anymore
Posted: 8/25/2018 12:55:14 AM

If she starts on a diatribe about her ex-anything or how hard life is, deflect the conversation, divert the conversation and if she insists on talking about nothing but this... then cut the date short


There's one date I had that I recognised afterwards that I should have just got up and walked out from, I felt pretty bad afterwards! I was essentially there as a free therapist and at the end of it she told me my hair wasn't long enough for her. Met IRL so can't blame online dating for that. lol A sensible mature discussion about someone's sexual history I would think was ok if it's her intention to have sex with you, but not otherwise.

I would agree whole heartedly with everything in that list. Shame I've learnt most of it through mistakes, where have you been? lol
What's strange is that I hadn't noticed the need so much for this type of advice when I was younger.

One explanation would be I was so clueless I didn't even notice if someone was treating me badly, but on balance it might have more to do with the fact I spent a lot of time working abroad in different cultures. One aspect of not fully understanding the local language and customs is that lots of things go over your head and you get used to it, so dating isn't any exception.

I did really notice a difference coming back to western cultures though, whereas I could quite easily go and start chatting to just about anyone with ease (language barrier excepted), returning to the UK I found that your typical stranger could be quite hostile in comparison.

I'd say that the way some women and men treat each in the west creates a downward spiral, women blame men, men blame women - that's what I really wanted this thread to be about, how honest people of both sexes can escape mutually assured destruction because of the minority going around making dating a nightmare for everyone else. (Didn't do a great job getting that across admittedly)


I think what has happened is women often hookup with a guy hoping it will develop into something more but after trying it a few times, they realize hookups don't work. Most women want relationships but many women will lie to a guy or to themselves that they just want something casual.


No doubt this does happen. I'd say a lot of relationship problems are caused by doing one thing to get something else, whatever those things may be. Promising a relationship to get sex, or having sex to get a relationship are just two examples. In Buddhist philosophy there is an emphasis on Right Speech, even if your intentions are good, dishonesty rarely ends well. You've got more chance of noticing someone is lying to you than knowing why they are lying, even if it's not conscious, that instinct that something isn't right will make me extremely defensive if I'm emotionally invested in a situation.

Perhaps it is an oddity for me that a couple of my better relationships started from hookups, where we both wanted a relationship but neither of us had said so - both people I'd met IRL incidentally. While some my worst experiences have been when I've spent a long time getting to know someone online and then been ghosted because, despite being too busy to meet, they'd somehow managed to meet someone else. Getting older I find there are fewer opportunities to meet single women IRL and so am using online dating more, perhaps attributing to the increase in problems. That said, there are examples that have gone the other way too, good online experiences and awful real-life meetings.

Breaking it down further:

1) Women who used to hookup and now want a relationship
a) Those that are sincere and making an effort to change
b) Those that think they want a relationship, maybe just because they've turned 30, but they don't - lack of self-knowledge
b) Those that assume a guy should be ok with it and get outraged when they object - perhaps wanting to continue sleeping around and cheating on some poor sap who pays the bills
2) Women who always (mostly) wanted relationships but have been lied to
a) Those that learned from their mistakes and have moved on, and are now more cautious
b) Those that are learning but perhaps aren't yet emotionally ready for a new relationship, overly cautious, requiring a lot of effort with a high risk of the relationship failing
c) Those that blame men, haven't learned, and think any man if a fair target for their revenge
3) Women who are being dishonest in other ways
a) Those that have good intentions that can lead them down a bad path ("white" lies), e.g. thinking that sleeping with a guy will make him like you, so saying one thing when you want another
b) Those that are playing mind games, with various levels of self-awareness about what they're up to e.g Rapo http://www.ericberne.com/games-people-play/rapo/ (see also "kick-me"). These rely on what's explicitly said and what's implied being at odds (maybe through body language, flirting, revealing past promiscuity), so there's always the defense that they haven't done anything wrong, yet both parties are (at least somewhat) aware that something else was going on - they can be dangerous and need to be avoid at all costs, tempting though it is, these games can't be "won" if they're being played on you.

The difficulty is knowing which category(s) someone falls into and responding appropriately; and I'm sure I could rewrite this to create something similar for men.

Some of the ways this might be stated in a profile:
* I want a relationship
* I don't want hookups
* I'm not into hookups anymore

My suggestion, would be to write a profile positively for the person you do want to meet, and not for the people that you don't want to meet. That "anymore" at the end makes a big difference though.
 Woodrock
Joined: 8/1/2018
Msg: 17 (view)
 
Not looking for hookups anymore
Posted: 8/24/2018 7:59:34 AM

Mr. OP can just bypass any profile that offends him


Thanks for your response. It's not that I'm offended, I've just had some bad experiences and was wondering if I can do anything differently myself to improve things in the future. Bypassing profiles that make negative comments seems to be the most sensible suggestion as that's something that I can do and which doesn't unrealistically expect other people to change for me, which I think is your second sentiment that I totally agree with. I will also look out for women who say they want to take it slow but are then very flirtatious.

FYI, I did figure out what was going on and feel much calmer now :)

In short, I was making some of the very same mistakes that I was seeing in women's profiles, just a kind of male version of it, and needing to take responsibility for my part in where things were going wrong. As said above, once or twice and that's bad luck, but at some point you have to ask yourself if you're doing something that's bringing trouble on yourself. I know most of the people out there, men and women, are just trying to get on with life and meet someone, so I am going to learn my lessons and move on with a clean slate.
 Woodrock
Joined: 8/1/2018
Msg: 12 (view)
 
Not looking for hookups anymore
Posted: 8/23/2018 3:05:25 AM

ETA: Oh, wait. Is this a 'nice guy' diatribe? On the order of 'girls only want to date jerks and us nice guys languish'?


Ha, I think you've got me there!


offensive is what you consider the attention you want from a woman then I gotta say that your bar isn't very high


You are right again, seems it's best just not responding in that case because it's not going to go anywhere other than a pointless argument. I have in the past attempted to explain the miscommunication but if someone's already assumed the worst of you it's futile.


I doubt if it's dishonesty.


Yeah it could be that I've interpreted some things as being more intentional than they are and that's what's bothered me. Perhaps if I tried to be more understanding then I might see it differently. Reminds of a trick prosecutes use in court, by showing video replays in slow motion, so you can see more clearly what's happening, it gives the impression that people's actions were much more deliberate than if viewing everything at real speed as the events unfolded.


You seem to be complaining that women fall for men who lie and (slightly imply) that you are having more problems meeting women because of this. Have I got that correct?


So having given this some thought, I think there are 2 separate issues that I've mixed up in my head. 1) Some who's chosen to change because they want to settle down and so are pursuing a different type of person than they would have. 2) Those who've been hurt and are trying not to get hurt again.

The comments from other posters have addressed some of the issues around these.


There's something about your posts that I find off putting but, like you, I am finding it hard to put my finger on exactly what bothers me about it


Not sure if this was genuine or meant sarcastically? Again, I think I was getting confused between two separate things. Easy to sound a little off if you're not sure what it is you're trying to say or why you're feeling a certain way, wouldn't you agree?


On the order of 'girls only want to date jerks and us nice guys languish'?


Worth finishing on this again. I don't agree with these sentiment, although it is a trap that's easy to fall into. I think how nice you are, or not, doesn't have a lot to do with attraction. If you're only nice because you have little else to offer then it comes across as needy, however, you can also be nice because you are secure and successful in your life. So I would say if someone is attracted to guys who also tend to be jerks, but not because they are jerks, then they won't be attracted to other types of guys that might happen to be nice for one reason or another, but because they've been hurt they think that's what they want.

Not sure how well I explained it - take for example confidence, it could be confidence that is the attractive trait and that happens to be more true of people who tend to be jerks than nice guys, but isn't directly related to either.

Take that as a hypothesis, would you agree with it?

How would you suggest guys avoid falling into the "nice guy" trap when things aren't going well? I don't think anyone likes to feel like they're being used, whether it's women for sex, or men for emotional support. In a, admittedly twisted way, I've come to see sex as a sign that I'm not being used, it signals the attraction is real and that she's not just after some attention following a bad relationship. Yes, I know that's messed up before you ask lol
 Woodrock
Joined: 8/1/2018
Msg: 9 (view)
 
Not looking for hookups anymore
Posted: 8/22/2018 2:15:20 PM

taking responsibility over one's poor choices & faulty judgment of character


Yes, there's no acknowledgement of how a guy might feel about being asked to wait knowing your history and the risk that the women hasn't changed but is instead disinterested or using you, which would seem more likely given an extended pattern of behaviour.

Of course I must reflect that I am most likely displaying faulty judgement of character as well. I've noticed that you can write a lot of careful, personalised messages and get no replies, but insult a woman and she'll respond straight away. I'm not in the habit of deliberately being offensive but sometimes jokes don't come across the way I intended - if guys want attention from women, you have to ask yourself what kind of behaviour it is they are rewarding.
 Woodrock
Joined: 8/1/2018
Msg: 8 (view)
 
Not looking for hookups anymore
Posted: 8/22/2018 12:37:25 PM

Dude what's your problem?


I don't think that question was meant in a constructive way so I won't answer.


Am I wrong here or are you basically saying you have an issue with women that want to be cautious as they have been lied to and manipulated by men?


You're wrong.
 Woodrock
Joined: 8/1/2018
Msg: 3 (view)
 
Not looking for hookups anymore
Posted: 8/21/2018 10:34:03 PM

Disney dream in their heads


Funny you say that, I've thought on many occasion that the problem is that they want to find prince charming but don't understand that they need to kiss a frog to get him - reminds me of a linkedin post I saw about this woman who was asking how she could find a rich man, it seems to me that a lot of highly successful wealthy men have got that way because of the love of a woman they met before they had the money.

It's obviously impossible to compete on the prince charming scale with someone who's lying, but only needs to keep up the pretense long enough to get a woman into bed, so how do guys looking for relationship filter out women who are going to fall for this and thus waste your time? What other signs (red flags) do people look for in profiles?
 Woodrock
Joined: 8/1/2018
Msg: 1 (view)
 
Not looking for hookups anymore
Posted: 8/21/2018 3:43:18 PM
I've only started to notice this is the past couple of years, but loads of women are stating that they aren't looking for hookups anymore, that they had one night stands when they were young but now want a relationship.

Sometimes it's because they've been treated badly and guys have lied to them so they now want to make sure a guy is really interested in something long term.

Trouble is, I find this really off putting. Hard to put my finger on exactly what bothers me, whether it feels like I'm being punished for other men's dishonesty or that I'm being used because the kind of guys these women used to go for don't have decent jobs or something and so they're not really interested in me for who I am...

To me it seems self-defeating, because taking this stance (and many other similar negative comments I've seen on profiles) would only seem to chase off the kind of men they claim to want to meet? Given that men on the whole prefer younger women, it seems doubly strange that women would choose to make themselves less available when they're in their 30s. Personally, I don't mind what approach women take, everyone is free to choose what they want for themselves - it's the in-authenticity, for want of a better word, that makes me uncertain what's really going on. For example, I got chatting to one woman (as friend, so I know it's not just me) who was telling me what kind of guy she liked, who the next week slept with someone who was in nearly every way the opposite of what she described!

Wondering if anyone else has noticed this, or has done this? How has it worked out? Is it dishonesty or are people just incredibly bad at knowing what they really want - are these the same thing in a moral/spiritual sense, self-denial?
 
Show ALL Forums