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 Author Thread: welcome to writin' for rueful wretches
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 1979 (view)
welcome to writin' for rueful wretches
Posted: 6/20/2010 10:39:14 PM
Is my coaster still soggy n dogeared
By the corner of brawny's bar?
Is there beer in your socks and fridge
And smoked meat in a jar?
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 1800 (view)
welcome to writin' for those in hose
Posted: 11/22/2009 2:18:42 AM
Ever wrapped a firehose around your waist
And called emergency to send a lime sherbet,
Forty athletic models posing
As Karen Black in "The Pyx"
Burning holes in bibles with her eyes,
And have them throw in a case of Puilly Fousse
With a permanent coupon without
The skill testing question?

Just wondering.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 57 (view)
Islam Goes to bat for America
Posted: 9/30/2009 5:18:19 PM

OH, NO! the M word. I wouldn't be caught dead in these discussions uttering the M word. Those guys have plenty to do already, and I wouldn't want to add any more to their work load.

This is disingenuous regarding your drive-by smear-by-unsubstantian ploy. You can't identify anything I've said as being a "personal attack", so you deflect by (the initial) passive-aggressive thrust, and when called on it, back off in an "aw shucks I don't want to trouble them" mode. Here's a clue: moderators appreciate genuine reports made to them of egregious offenses. It precludes further, and messier, problems down the road. So be it. You just keep dissembling.

I don't find anywhere in your initial post (page 3, message # 53) where you said anything about the prayer event about the American muslims other than it was "an exercise in self-promotion," which was "offensive" to you

Then you're being either a disingenuous sophist, or obtuse and prejudicial.

Just because I don't preface any complaint by granting rights where those rights should initially be asumed, doesn't mean that I fail to meet the test of those whose only position is to trumpet their own "tolerance". This is debating 101: you've made the elementary but common error of filling in a natural "omission" with your own unfounded suspicions, which (as we can see later on down your post) is coloured by (as I'd earlier suspected) your ideological, emotional bias. This is about your own projections.

I find the denial of the anti-muslim bias existence to be the sum of an ideological posture that legitimizes the current state of affairs. It is almost as if anyone who is a muslim has to prove that he/she is not a terrorist, or supporter of terrorists, just like anyone who looks hispanic is suspected of being an illegal alien, thanks to the work of the right wing extremists that are constantly spewing their hate on radio and television.

Really? What world do you live in? This isn't a rhetorical question.

One would think that there must be a seething tension between Muslims/Hispanics and ....who? only right-wing whites? (gawd, how can one keep from gagging on these verbal chestnuts?) for the psychic territory to be so polluted, according to yourself.

But then, we have this to "back it up", so to speak.

The demonization and vilification of Muslims and Middle-Eastern people have been the ideological pillars of America's “war on terror.”

I won't honour this alarmist tripe by lengthy probing, and in any case, it's beyond the scope of this thread. However, it may be wise to keep a sense of proportion (which is another word for honesty) about what you think, write, or quote. I'm still waiting for evidence of this "demonization" and "vilification", but I've learned not to hold my breath.

As for the "no fly" lists, don't make me laugh. I've flown several times into and out of the U.S. post 9/11. Grizzled white causasian grannies are asked to take off their shoes, and the delays have next to nothing to do with an untoward bias against Muslims, since I've failed to see many dark-skinned "durn furreners" in those long lines. Unless you're a kooky 9/11 truther, I'll remind you the religion, ideological mission, and nationalities of those who tested a "new law" for physics by planting their projectiles into scyscrapers were Muslims (egads! is it "hateful bias" to say so?? ) If some Muslims are being detained by mistake out of natural national defense concerns, then I understand the irritation, but I don't have much sympathy for it. Get in line with the rest of us who are increasingly under video surveillance, email and cell phone spying, internet oversight, and business watchdogs.

As to the Obama "issue", how you can make a pre-emptive jump between the wars of the lunatic right and the lunatic left, and equate that to what I "might have meant" on this thread .... well, I'll leave your imagination alone. I wouldn't want to deprive you of your pure and delicious frissons.

We had to make an extraordinary effort here to corkscrew it out of you, and get you to say that they had that right to assemble and pray

This is my fave sentence in the thread so far.

Who is this "we" you speak of? The thought police? Hey, Heather McNaughton would like to trade stories with you.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 53 (view)
Islam Goes to bat for America
Posted: 9/27/2009 8:40:09 PM

First, you were very fast to pull the "ad-hominem attack" card when I first addressed the ideas in your posts

Your statement "pulling the ad hominem attack card" indicates that I used it as a "shutting up" ploy, when, as I've already stated, I was actually helping you, and any like-minded responders, out. Ad hominem replies are a short, straight way to get a thread nuked, and, because I think this is an infinitely more important thread topic than "whatddya think uv wut Kanya West sed!?", I was just nudging things back to the issues, not the person. I welcome your on-topic replies.

I could start pointing out your personal attacks and respond to them, one by one,

If you feel that anything I've said on this thread has been a personal attack, please report it to the moderators, either by way of the report violation thread near the bottom of the home POF menu. Or, alternatively, you can take your specific concerns to Forum_Moderator or to any specific moderator through personal mail.

I understand what you write, and when something is not clear for me, I ask questions. That is what I did at first, and then when your answers were lacking in clarity, and I am not the only one saying that, further questions arose. The problem seems to be not in the posters' ability to understand what you write but in your inability/unwillingness to address the questions head on. You seem to shift from one point to another in order to deviate the readers attention to the fact that you aren't addressing the issue that was brought up to your attention

No, you haven't checked your own initial baseless accusations. The evidence is on the thread. You responded to my offense by stating "too bad that by exercising their rights they are offending you", which is a ridiculous assumption based on your own pre-emptive view that I wished to take away those rights. This is a frequent tactic of sophists (I'm not saying you are one, to take a page from your passive-aggressive playbook).

Of course, anyone reading the exchange without emotional or ideological blinkers can see that my issue was with the motivations and goals of the prayerfest itself, and never the Muslims' right to stage it.

As for my statement:

Please brush up on your reading comprehension skills

there is nothing remotely ad hominem about this. Do you understand what that term means? I attacked your lack of skill in faulty deduction in this instance. Your rejoinder, however, was directed at me being a "know it all". The former attacks a truthful lack of connecting the dots; the latter attacks a supposed arrogance, levelled against me, and based on pre-emptive, and false reasoning.

I understand that more than a purely religious ceremony, the event has political undertones in the American environment. They feel the need to counter the biased image of terrorism that the media has attached to the muslim world. They want to show that not all muslims are terrorists, and that American muslims love their country as much as Americans of any other faith.

Could you please give evidence for rampant discrimination and violence of Muslims within North America? Why do Muslims feel they are being browbeaten or threatened in America? You have affirmative action, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religious choice, freedom of thought, for everyone, including Muslims. If these and many other freedoms and benefits to living in your great country aren't good enough for Muslims, what is it, in particular, that they're praying for?

Anyone reading the quote that you are addressing in your answer can see that what you wrote is mis-directing towards another issue (violence, discrimination) that is not even remotely implied in the quote (biased media, terrorist image) that you are responding to.

There is no misdirection here at all. In fact, it's the logical question following from your post where Muslims "feel the need to counter the biased image of terrorism that the media has attached to the Muslim world". I find that quote utter bunk. And that's why I asked: on what grounds do you -- or do Muslims -- base this? In my experience in Canada, and from what I've read about the social relations in America, there is not only not an "image of terrorism", but large and general acceptance of Muslims, as long as the proselytizers, PC taqqiya experts, lobbyists, and grievance filers, aren't on the scene. I'm still waiting for evidence of this skewed view of their religion.

I would just remind you to heed your own words and "look at the world through lenses a little less tainted with ideological smear."

What ideology do you suppose I'm endorsing?

I am glad to read that you have come around to recognize that the muslim Americans have a right to pray and to assemble,

This is the most insulting part of your post. I haven't "come around" to see that they have a right to pray. That was, and has continued to be (for whatever reason), your own strange reasoning and assumption.

They've always had that right. And you agree with me. And that agreement has been your only real contribution to this thread. Bizarre.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 48 (view)
Islam Goes to bat for America
Posted: 9/25/2009 1:52:29 AM

You yammer about,

Thanks for the careful refutation.

At what point might you be willing to provide that clarity you speak of? The question was "where did you read that they will be praying for the souls of the unbelievers?"

Now I can understand that, yes, you must be a lawyer. I'm not on trial to jump through every hoop you or tranquilo throws at me. I've provided detailed, time-consuming answers to most questions and responses, unlike your two-liners (not that there's anything wrong with terse posts, in general).

But since you insist, I'll indulge you this one time.

I've actually already covered this in questions both rhetorical and curiously exploratory. Those numerous questions weren't submitted just to score cheap points, but for serious reflection for anyone who's interested in the greater context of this issue.

So once again: the rally (according to the OP) has been organized to "pray for the soul" of America. Well, call me a country puddlejumper, but, shazzam, that indicates, at least to this particular scribe, the merest glimmerings that something (what? what?) may be amiss in your country (according to Muslim prayers) if they have to go to the trouble of national congregation to try to "fix" the problem, apparently peculiar only to America, or at least exacerbated in the confines of the Red, White, and Blue. I've already asked specific questions about the motivation, ranging from: fear for their own safety or legitimacy, to pushing for the legitimacy of Sharia law within their own communities.

I never said I "read" that they will be praying for the souls of the unbelievers. (Objection sustained!) That was my own statement; I'm totally responsible for it. It shouldn't be much of a shocker to anyone who can extrapolate past the headline. The U.S. is vastly non-Muslim; the Muslims who are organizing and proceeding to this event are going to "pray for the soul" of America. Thus, they are praying for the souls of Americans. (Or for their own souls if you believe the 1st possibility in the above paragraph.) Thus, they must find that there's something lacking in the souls of Americans that these same Muslims can help them out with, or rather, that Allah, through their intermediary concern, can provide. (Prayer is to Allah, after all, not CNN. Aw, hell, it's to both, though, isn't it? Or at least one of those entities. I'll leave it to the individual to choose which one is the most likely.)
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 11 (view)
And the endoctrinization begins.........
Posted: 9/25/2009 1:20:10 AM
The video was shot by Charisse Carney-Nunes at a Burlington Township elementary school in NJ. (She's proselytized at at least one other NJ school, as well.) She is the Senior Vice President of Programs at the Jamestown Project. Here is their curriculum guide for grades 3 through 5:

"Children Do Democracy Too is an outgrowth of our Doing Democracy work. The purpose of the initiative is to equip children with the knowledge and tools necessary to meaningfully participate in civil society and democracy. The central question we seek to answer is, “How do we instill the values of citizenship and active participation into the youngest, and in many ways the most important, members of our democracy?”

The Jamestown Project released A Children’s Curriculum for Civic Engagement in the Fall of 2008 as part of this initiative. The curriculum is based on our book I DREAM FOR YOU A WORLD: A COVENANT FOR OUR CHILDREN.

The Curriculum adapts the concepts from the book into lessons and activities to promote civic engagement to elementary aged children. Grades 3 – 5 are the optimal age for children to not only understand their place in the world, but also a time to begin to comprehend their power and potential to make a difference in their own lives, their family, their communities, and their country.

We are currently piloting the curriculum and seeking new partners to help us evaluate the program, share learning, and to strategize about achieving future goals."

(bolding mine)

She has also written a children's book entitled "I Am Barack Obama(2009)"; she promotes her book thusly: "it allows children to see themselves through the inspirational story of President Obama growing up as an ordinary child asking, Who will change the world? Ultimately, he realizes that he will."

At least the "he" wasn't capitalized.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 45 (view)
Islam Goes to bat for America
Posted: 9/24/2009 5:26:59 PM
from tranquilo123:

I understand that more than a purely religious ceremony, the event has political undertones in the American environment. They feel the need to counter the biased image of terrorism that the media has attached to the muslim world. They want to show that not all muslims are terrorists, and that American muslims love their country as much as Americans of any other faith.

Could you please give evidence for rampant discrimination and violence of Muslims within North America? Why do Muslims feel they are being browbeaten or threatened in America? You have affirmative action, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religious choice, freedom of thought, for everyone, including Muslims. If these and many other freedoms and benefits to living in your great country aren't good enough for Muslims, what is it, in particular, that they're praying for?

And I seem to recall this story as being "prayers for America", not prayers for self-protection. So what is the real motive? America is corrupt, and so Muslims are praying for its "soul"? And if this is the reason, does this not tie in with Qur'anic law, that America needs prayers in order to "see the light", the light being conversion to Islam?

These are serious questions. And, again, it's naive to dismiss them, or to downplay their ideological propinquity to political transformation. And that has nothing to do with harmless "prayer".

I, as an American who believe in the high ideals of our country, feel that they have every right to assemble, just like any other religious or political group.

Could you please point out a single person on this thread who has not granted them the right to congregate and pray?

And in terms of publicizing the event, I don't find any valid objection. I mean, the religious crusades of evangelists are very well publicized so that the public will fill the gigantic stadiums. Just think of the shows that Billy Graham used to put on. He had a decent reputation as a preacher, and many people respected him. Nowadays there are some scammers putting even larger shows than him. This event is nothing like that, so I don't see where the objections are coming from

This is a false analogy. Billy Graham and others of the more respectable Christian ilk didn't organize their fellowship in football stadiums out of concern they were being oppressed. And they didn't have political motivations, aims and goals in mind, either.

Perhaps people think that they should stay in their confines without disturbing them, because the public space belongs to people of other faiths but not muslims.

You're beginning to sound like a one-note Johnny. Again, no one is denying Muslims', or any group's, right to assemble. You see, this is one of many areas where Muslims get a justifiably bad rap.

People criticize Islam.

Those people are "intolerant".

Therefore, those people should, under either "legal" lawfare, or physical threats, shut up.

Disagreement with their views and agenda not only equals intolerance, to Muslim activists, but"hatred". It must, therefore, be "eliminated".

Sorry, not in Canada. And not in the U.S.

I just profess that they, as Americans, have the same rights as everybody else. You may not like them to have that right, and may think of any type of objections, but in the end it is as simple as that: do they have the same rights as everybody else, or not? Answer that, and then let's talk about the hypocritical part.

And the needle goes "click-click-click-click" in its groove.

And as far as the supposedly "ad-hominem" attack, you got to develop a little bit of a thicker skin when debating these issues

I have a crusty skin to match my (at times) crusty personality. I'm simply offering you a gentle helping hand not to derail an important thread by going down the ad hominem road. Attack my ideas all you want; leave personal attacks out of the picture.

You put yourself in a difficult position when you write such a general, simplistic reason for disqualifying the value of religious faith, such as the one that you achieved when you became a teenager.

Please brush up on your reading comprehension skills.

As I already stated, the church-going till 14 was only the impetus for my views. A lot of soul-searching as to spiritual meaning (at the macro level), and a lot of reading, conversation, and observation, followed that-- 39 further years, in fact. And I'm still learning. I'd hope others would also pursue important texts, and look at the world through lenses a little less tainted with ideological smear. Though, of course, it's everyone's "right" not to do so, just as it's my right to show my disgust when I feel like it.


It is too bad that you're offended by this situation. It smacks of hatred. Hopefully it gives the wrong impression and you aren't hateful, but...that is the impression you're giving.

Perfect! Are you from the "Human Rights" division? I don't know if you're a Canadian resident or not, but in either case, perhaps you've missed the terrifying, fascinating, and surreal theatre regarding Canada's "hate" laws here over the past few years. So much across-the-board disgust has mounted against the Muslim grievance-mongers in league with the "tolerant" (oh, cruel irony!) bureaucrats who've been fattening their coffers railroading innocent Canadians during that time, that it's with great pleasure I can announce one of their own overseers has finally, in all but final draft, stated that the section 13 phony "hate" laws have been struck down, and once again, people can, over the internet in particular, have a civil, critical, and meaningful discussion about a range of controversial topics without the Damocles sword of puffed-up pimps and apologists of PC entrenchment hanging over their heads.

Hate? Do you know what the word means? Why the hell aren't Muslims "praying", en masse, for girls getting clitorectomies? Getting stoned to death because they were raped, and have now brought "indignity" upon their families? Gays for being gay? These are people of their own faith. Who is protecting them? Or are all those sins "culturally relative"?

I don't hate Muslims, at least not the ones who don't take Mohammed's bloodthirsty words to heart. I hate the cultish momentum for Sharia, the craven groupthink.

It's none of your business who or what anyone else prays for, so your preference here is irrelevant.

By that specious logic, the OP's words are also irrelevant, since he's stated in post 1 that this mass prayerfest could be the means for a fantasy group hug.

And you've likewise found it relevant enough to chime in on what a positive force is this event.

I'm pro-pray, actually. Knee-jerk conclusions and indiscriminate reading are problems for the reactor. But I'm anti-"pray" when prayers are organized in mass rallies and with political intent. In fact, it debases the very idea of prayer, which should be, and is, defined as a private matter between one and one's God. As William Blake said, "would that everyone had a personal relationship with God". Are 50, 000 + simultaneous prayers all the same?

If not, how does Allah do all the rapid calculations to satisfy everyone? Wouldn't necessary compromise in such an event be impossible as to granting such different wishes?

If the prayers ARE the same, doesn't that speak to either (a) unimaginative, conformist prayers, or (b) a troubling, organizing agenda as to what's being prayed for?
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 37 (view)
Islam Goes to bat for America
Posted: 9/23/2009 4:25:19 PM

Where did you read that they will be praying for the souls of the unbelievers?

Let me be clear. I'd rather they were praying for individual souls, or for the "soul of a nation", than proselytyzing by .... ahem .... other means.

Don't be naive. No ideology, religion, or political force, organizes to this extent unless they want something specific themselves to come their way out of it. Do you really think that 50, 000 + people are going to go to the trouble and expense to travel and miss work in order to do what they could just as easily do in the privacy of their own homes, alone? Or, if the social itch is that important to them, that they couldn't satisfy it by many smaller, local groups coordinated in their home towns and cities? Ah, but then that wouldn't gain them any national publicity now, would it? What fun is it to be moral, pious, and good-hearted if no one else seems to realize it?

But perhaps you know better, since you started knowing it all at fourteen.

Careful with the passive-aggressive ad hominem. It's unbecoming, in fact hypocritical, in those professing a peaceful amd prayerful communal worship with the souls of all-inclusive society.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 34 (view)
Islam Goes to bat for America
Posted: 9/23/2009 2:38:55 PM

How can you then pretend that you understand the motivations of religious people?

Because I was brought up to go to a church of Protestant demonination until I was 14 years old. At that point, I had the individuality, smarts, and force, to deny the charade that is organized religion (the two biggest secrets of which are: sex is bad, and keep the suckers feeling guilty -- the 2nd following from the first. Even at 14, this was accurately intuited).

Because I've studied the three major theistic religions with fascination.

Because I understand the esoteric underpinnings of religion, the esoteric core, and how that's been perverted by the exoteric dogma with its attendant power motive throughout history.

And, pertinent to this thread, I understand how arrogant and wrongheaded it is to presume to "pray" for the souls of unbelievers. My soul is fine, thanks. No need for a condescending prayer where it's not needed, and more importantly, not wanted. (As stated, though, even this motive is bogus. What hubris to announce a mass public prayer-fest.)

Too bad that by exercising their right to freedom of religion they are offending you.

I'll be offended by any damn thing I want to be offended by. And, unlike the Canadian "Human Rights" Commission, its corrupt apologists, and the crazy fucks whose literal devotion to the Qur'un makes apostasy and any non-Muslim an automatic offense by existence, I grant Muslims who want to congregate and pray the right to also be offended.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 23 (view)
Fear of Generic Pop Music Taking Over...
Posted: 9/23/2009 1:48:48 PM
from the OP;

What would happen if any music that was ever played on the radio had to be approved by American Idol? Does anyone else out there think that music could quite possibly become very "Dull" and Generic Pop would take over and true creativity in the music industry would be lost forever

What, exactly, would change?

American Idol is just an extension of MTV, which itself was an extension of top 40 radio pop pablum, which itself was formed out of cynical marketing gurus who saw a lot of youngsters with a lot of disposable bucks willing to listen to radio ads.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 31 (view)
Islam Goes to bat for America
Posted: 9/23/2009 1:30:09 PM
msg 7:

If all they're doing is praying, why do they need a big media buildup?


It's an exercise in self-promotion. "Look how wonderful we are!"

In addition, I've always found it offensive, in my own experience with Christians, or in the transparent hypocrisy of Muslims, when they say they'll "pray for me", or in this case, my society. Those prayers, if they're earnest, should be going to their fellow Muslims without free expression and other fundamental rights in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan. Where are all the protests and prayers from moderate Canadian and U.S. Muslims to those who really need it? This promotion is politically and religiously motivated, hiding under the false cover of "prayer". Check out what undercover Muslim posers have said about the pervasive anti-West aggression going on in mosques from Montreal to San Diego, from Vancouver to Miami. Then check out the meaning of malediction, which is both a prayer and a curse.

I'm not religious. I don't believe in a Muslim god, or any other for that matter. I find it extremely offensive to know someone is "praying" for me. But then, non-minorities, unlike Islam (at over one billion?) aren't allowed to be offended.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 10 (view)
Keyboard Courage
Posted: 9/23/2009 12:36:01 PM
I've maintained a blog for almost two years now, and its title is my real name. A simple google search of my name will bring up my blog to everyone on Earth with a computer. I find it's not only physical removal that makes people "brave", but the knowledge that they won't be held accountable by friends, family, employers, and the general unknown world community.

This is why, in comment streams I'm a part of, when there's a mix of users with real names in addition to the repetitive "anonymous" handle, the latter invariably are the trolls, the idiots, the flamers. In so-called real life, those keyboard muscleheads would be laughed at, immediately avoided, or involved in a punch-up, three options that even fools can intuit happening when their views are aired. But they'd also be identified forever by all those they come in contact with, especially those who now associate with them, and who have the power to wreak havoc with their relationships, career, and social interactions.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 22 (view)
If you think flying is bad now, you'll love this!
Posted: 9/23/2009 12:20:12 PM
msg 25:

Not only isn't anyone obligated to fly, no one is obligated to choose this particular carrier in the event that one does choose to fly. All this fuss and self-righteousness over a possible CHOICE. Seems silly.

Do you think this particular carrier wants to alienate previous and potential customers?

You're missing the larger point. It's either go with similarly unattractive cutbacks, or have flight frequency on certain routes reduced, even eliminated. Already, flights to and from some U.S. midwest big towns and small cities have gone from once or twice a day to once or twice a week. ALL airlines are now under this pressure, and the dilemma of cost, frequency, and service decisions will only become more difficult. Everyone has a choice. But the uniformity in downward spiralling quality of choices will continue to be less pleasant. Just the idea that this option is even being floated is illuminating.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 18 (view)
If you think flying is bad now, you'll love this!
Posted: 9/23/2009 12:37:25 AM

For the second post where the guy says jet fuel is just paraffin and kerosene...I wouldn't know, but if you believe that, what on earth makes you think that is more expensive than car fuel????

I didn't say "just".

It's more expensive because it's a combination of high grade fuel and additives which have to be processed, filtered, and screened before hitting the airports, then, once more, combined with other anti-freezing additives or fire-retardant additives (depending on the weather and the specific fuel) whereupon it's checked again for consistency and initial combining. If needed, at that time, further adjustments can be made as to Prist or Biobore.

Over a hundred different strains of hydrocarbons can be used in a final mix and match, not to mention the $$ paid to those testing and adjusting.

But you've missed the larger point, also included in my initial reply. And that's to do with the price of oil. Jet fuel now makes up between 30% to 40% of an airline's total operating cost. Every penny added to paid jet fuel costs the airline industry an additional $200 million a year. Fuel costs have risen, for the airlines in the aggregate, $132 billion between 2004 and 2007, despite fuel efficiency improvements and bulk hedging contracts. Volatility in oil prices, however, often offset bulk reduction rates, since jet fuel contracts often are locked in up to a year in advance. (When oil prices go down in this case, airlines end up paying more than they should because of their set contract.)

I couldn't stomach going past post two.

Too bad. You're missing a good thread.


If you think that's just silly, look at the serious Ryanair proposal in the article. I think all these genius ideas will accomplish is to encourage more to abandon flying altogether and just burn up more gas driving

smiling salmon:

Don't you think that is exactly the plan???

Your comment makes no sense. The opposite should be the case. Why would the airline industry want to encourage alternative means of transport?

This particular idea may be ludicrous, for reasons of discomfort and safety, as most on this thread say. But the philosophy makes sense. Incremental discomfort and sacrifice. It's a well known psycological procedure to get people used to ever-increasing discomfort by slow degrees so that the next level won't seem so bad by contrast. (The boiling frog in a pot syndrome.) In a much more dire example, this is how the Russians got Poland to relent after WWII to reduce possible violence and get the defeated nation to a state of sad, resigned compliance. Fortunately, high costs will trump poor service for airline customers, thus rendering these experiments in airborne depression moot.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 12 (view)
Neil Young Question...
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:55:36 AM
Yes, it's Malibu. The headlines on the scattered newspaper on the album's cover have to do with Nixon's lies (from a certain infamous iconic American moment) which were referenced in the great "Ambulance Blues" concluding track. I concur that On The Beach is Neil's best.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 2 (view)
If you think flying is bad now, you'll love this!
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:45:28 AM
I have complete sympathy for the hard economics the airline industry finds itself dealing with because of imminent Peak Oil and the economic meltdown. Jet fuel (paraffin and kerosene) is more expensive than the stuff used to fill Japanese cars, and the rising costs have to be passed on to the consumer by way of reduced flights, more expensive flights, and cheaper (and poorer) service. The lion's share of blame should go the Fed gov'ts in Canada, the U.S., and elsewhere, since they're subsidizing a twilight industry. But you can't blame the industry execs for scooping the stimulus to stanch the red bottom line.

In the not-too-distant future, airline travel will be a luxury for the rich, as it once was, and not the assumed mode of transport during vacations and retirement trips.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 572 (view)
Decoding the Female Language
Posted: 9/15/2009 12:21:00 AM
again, from post 1:

You would be very surprised how many guys you like didn't even have a clue you were interested in them. I can usually tell if a woman is interested in me on a first date by two things: She is very "touchy feely", and she is always leaning forwards, towards me. (Or close to me)
Other than that, you better get out the crayons and paper.. lol

Well, why be the cowardly wallflower all the time? Look at it from a woman's perspective. She's probably thinking you're not interested in HER since you're being neutral -- you know, rational, nice, straghtforwardly conversational, asexual ....

So there're now two people, who secretly have some good mojo working, but who successfully suppress it, and who end up walking away in frustration. (Haven't there been a million bad movies made --comedy and drama -- dealing with this reality?) Even if you reject the "unfair" bias that says the man almost always has to stick his neck out first, your whining about it isn't going to improve the situation. Instead, guys who not only want to, but are eager to, flirt, enjoying it as lighthearted exploration, will continue to chalk up dates while you'll be the guy at the bar stool, bemoaning all the women who smile at him, while inwardly redrawing cynical, stunted c.ockteasing scenarios in your defeatist imagination.

All that said, you even admit to the obvious "clues" of touching and leaning. How many clues do you need, or at what force? (The cave (wo)man club?)
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 41 (view)
Offshore drilling vs. Alternative energy time to voice your opinion!
Posted: 9/15/2009 12:06:02 AM
If Exxon Mobil, BP, Chevron have, with their manifold billions and field expertise, basically folded the tent on oil exploration, what makes anyone think that a neophyte sequestered urban community organizer has a better answer?

Someone mentioned Obama's outsourcing of exploration and drilling to Brazil. Emerging economies, however, are viewing the rectangular Jacksons and Washingtons more as future monopoly money. And Brazil's experiment in localized ethanol won't sustain an expanding industrial/car dependent state. You can add Brazil to the growing list of countries who'll be keeping more of their goo inside their own borders.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 547 (view)
Decoding the Female Language
Posted: 9/11/2009 12:54:57 AM
from post 1:

My question is... why don't you just tell a guy you like him in a nice way, rather than go through all the trouble of trying to impress him and throw hundreds of "hints" his way (most of which he probably won't get).. ???

Because most women go ape-sh!t over guys who pursue them with passion and creativity.

You want women to fall into your lap. That only works when you're a self-possessed, handsome early-twenties man.

I'm forever puzzled by men who can scale Everest, fight fires, stand up to arrogant bosses (at work, that is), fight cougars (no, not those, I mean the four-legged kind) with a switch, volunteer for front-line war duty, yet crumple or cavil about having to put themselves on the line when meeting women.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 26 (view)
labor day weekend poetry contest, anyone?
Posted: 9/7/2009 1:18:28 AM

Grab your roomie
and flog her caboose,
staple your debts
on the picture-book moose.

Sic your burmese
on the sleeping mouse;
Throw your alarm clock
from the roof of the house.

Draw a mustache
on Geraldo Rivera.
Oh, wait, he had one,
or was it muskrat mascara?

Drop jello shooters on
wayward crossing guards
who harbour fantasies
of selling Green cards.

Twist the mad caps
from bottles of hootch,
but before you rest
gimme a smooch.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 74 (view)
Where Have All The Idealists Gone?...Long Time Passing
Posted: 9/6/2009 11:22:58 PM
A personal, on topic , story. No apologies to the attention-deficit-disorder crowd.

When I was seven (1963), I stayed home from school one day with a cold or flu, and flicked on my 4-transistor to Bobby Vinton singing "Blue Velvet". This was the first "rock" song I'd ever heard. Now, I'm sure most people remember that squaresville tune. Sentimental and sweet as maple syrup poured over apple pie. Inoffensive. Somnolent, yet sticking to the brain. The song was first performed, without fanfare, in 1950. But it remained for Vinton to croon it, 13 years later, in the supposedly "idealistic" 60s, for it to reach number #1 on the charts. And it stayed there for about two months. That's the first irony, as it pertains to this thread.

Towards the end of the 60s, I again stayed home from school, turned on the radio, and heard Bee Houston's hair-raising (when I had hair) vocals and guitar. 7 or 8 years into the "revolutionary" decade, and I was ignorant of the blues, the music from which much of the 60s owed its aural existence. I then got hold of some of Vanguard's excellent blues releases -- Wells, Guy, Jimmy Rogers, Shines, Collins, Hutto, Skip James, Sonny Boy Williamson (I & II), and on and on -- and felt both excited at my "discovery", and p!ssed that the radio clowns preferred to force feed its captive audience the (by then) TV friendly clothing-coordinated inoffensive (remember, this is the "life changing" 60s) strains of the latest one-hit wonder. (One hit wonders were a staple of the 60s, the creation of the evil hands-on cynicisms of music agents and managers.)

Those blues records I was by then happily devouring led to one major artery of the evolution of rock: original blues recordings, some of which I could compare with the reworkings of what I was (then) currently listening to. And it was then that I was truly humbled, because I realized what a chloroformed, ersatz parasitical manifestation a lot of those "revolutionary" 60s songs became, by contrast. Even critically acclaimed blues-influenced guitarists of the 60s, to a man, said that their covers were pale imitations, though loving tributes, to the National Steel players of the 20s and 30s: Blind Boy Fuller, Blind Blake, Blind Willie McTell, and later -- Hubert Sumlin, Freddie King, et al.

Much of the music of the 60s was crap, as it is in any era. But without the evolving blues and country and gospel strains of the 20s and 30s, even the good music of the 60s would have been impossible. This, in itself, isn't to denigrate the 60s, just to put things in perspective. Every decade borrows and steals from the past. But the 60s bought and stole from rock's roots like Imelda Marcos at a first-to-the-door going-out-of-business shoe sale.

60s rock, as late has exhaustively relayed on this thread, was notable for engineering breakthroughs, but also for the still (unbelievably) overlooked twinning of mass media with pop music/culture pimping.

And, on that second point, snapington also hammers nails in all four corners of the coffin-box of the illusion of idealism. The "change the world" lip-service from the faddish counterculture belies the fact -- makes it a grand irony --that music, in the 60s, like never before, was driven by consumer-acquiring manipulation.

I also find it a further irony that none of the "60s music was a mass cultural awakening" crowd have yet to invoke the name of Phil Ochs. Perhaps that's because he, unlike Bobby Vinton, didn't get any airplay. Where have all the idealists gone? Nowhere. They've been here all along, in every decade, invisible and unheard. The real agents for change usually can't affix their message to cartloads of album sales.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 71 (view)
What made 60's music so great?
Posted: 9/4/2009 11:04:45 PM

Rory. I cant beleive u dont know annalled is.

Oh, from "annals". Unfortunately, "annals" can't be used as an intransitive verb.

The rest of your post qualifies as argumentum ad nauseam. Unfortunately, even here, this is to misstate the fact that the initial "arguement" is substanceless. I'm willing to listen to counterpoints, in fact I'd love a new perspective, but "it's valid because it's my opinion" isn't enough.

"Demonized"? Do you know what the word "perspective" means?
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 69 (view)
What made 60's music so great?
Posted: 9/4/2009 9:51:09 PM

U dont understand what i'm alluding to late.

Oh + the ad hominem about my age reference was supposed to be for snapington, even though u have referred to 'nostalgia for the 60's, for those who didnt live through it, is just plain wierd' in previous posts.

Incorrect on multiple counts.

The "just plain weird" comment was by snapington, not late; it's certainly not ad hominem to use it; and I agree with it. The definition of nostalgia includes heightened personal longing for a situation or time one has actually lived through. Therefore, to wax emotional over the 60s, in this context, is misplaced at best, and unconvincing at worst.

but dont theorise over my grammatical 'mistakes' (ahem), platitudanal posts, my knowledge (or lack thereof according to some of you)

Grammar is very important in a debate. When one is not only unclear, but thickly opaque, in trying to express his or her views, it makes reception and understanding problematic, if not entirely impossible, as your "annalled"(?) makes apparent. Platitudes, by definiton, lack substance. Emotion doesn't substitute for arguement. You've been presented with many historically documented angles to contrast with your own views, yet instead of refutation, all you can offer is baseless, fuzzy superlative adjectival non sequiturs. And when called on that, a further retreat into "whoa is me, I'm being attacked" mode. Your opinions are being attacked. Deal with it.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 5 (view)
labor day weekend poetry contest, anyone?
Posted: 9/4/2009 7:23:11 PM

The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog
To prove he wasn't a twentieth century cog
In a nightmare Charlie Chaplin film on the machine-
Tooled efficiency of the industrial screws
Who spank the peons with rude outdated rules.
Brown fox of sly motion, sleek and mean,

Take five and hang ten, like the mutt still aground.
Quaff a twenty-ounce mint julep with loud sucking sounds.
Whet your whiskers on a foxy gadabout.
Hoot away the busy blues, lay on your back. Shout.
Render unto the ant the workaholic burn
Where fevers and levers of sweat once churned.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 68 (view)
What made 60's music so great?
Posted: 9/4/2009 5:31:29 PM

Never in previous musical decades was there a complete embracing of all different genres of music, with a slightly different twist as to what had been done before.


to name just three prominent decades that surpass the 1960s in musical synthesis and variation

Love me do (beatles) represented a seismic shift in the cultural embrace of music as a force.

Nothing new here. There were many -- and more -- powerful "cultural" music shifts in music before the Beatles came along. The Beatles, great as they were, benefitted big time when portable radio transistors became the norm.

(and in my opinion the very first jangly, 'popularised' song, thus defining the term 'pop')

"Pop", in severe etymology, could easily be applied to drawing room chamber music professionals in the early 1800s, and the troubadours of the thirteenth century.

A cataclysmic movement occured where upon music that had been merely trickled in previous to those with the awareness to seek out the brilliant uniqueness of such artists, became open for the masses to embrace.

Though the above is turgidly composed, and grammatically abysmal, its hyperbole doesn't raise its arguement from the dross of its method, affective fallacy, and blunt non sequitur.

And the final irony of "open for the masses to embrace" is apparently lost to you, though you're not alone. If sales were the measure of worth, Michael Jackson is superior to Blind Boy Fuller. Popularity (the Beatles) sometimes goes hand in hand with worth, but not often.

Then once that happened the collective conscious of the counter culture to that music was like finding the proverbial oasis in the desert.

The "collective conscious of the counter culture" had more to do with the development and sale of the pill (the real reason for the putative sexual revolution), with pervasive opulence (the real reason hippies could drop out yet still afford the good life), and with the aforementioned fear of being drafted (personal, not empathetic, social revolt). The Beatles singing "Love, Love Me Do" had about as much effect on social change as did the work of any tax accountant, then or now.

Combine with the social upheavel, black rights, feminism, vietnam + the fear of communism, the pill, abortion, jfk, + the shift from god fearing, gun toting, 'nuclear families' where we all made nice

Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 65 (view)
What made 60's music so great?
Posted: 9/3/2009 1:52:51 PM
Balboa, I'm also in agreement with you about the "hippies", post-60s, though I'd be remiss if I didn't elaborate on what I still feel is 60s misrepresentation by social historians.

Idealism has many depths, contexts, and facets. The idealists I admire, even revere, were excruciatingly aware of the psychological, national, emotional strictures of their time, while trying to surmount them, often futilely. Polish musicians, writers, and painters throughout the 30s, 40s, and 50s, were trapped between the Charybdis of Fascism and the Scylla of Communism. Practically, there was no other alternative that worked (Catholicism had been discredited, as had various artistic movements). They agonized over what to do, write, say, and were either evaporated or otherwise silenced, but they never stopped trying to come up with answers, no matter how great the odds. (Czeslaw Milosz'
The Captive Mind
explored this with great compassion.) On the other hand, the "idealism" of America's counterculture movement in the 60s was naive, uninformed, and weak. To place their catchword anti-intellectual groupthink sanctuary-driven phase-dependent enthusiasms next to those of young people fighting to effect actual world order is to make a mockery of the latter and a grandiose, false advertisement for the former.

A more modest idealism can be seen with any 60s musician who composed, wrote, and performed because of passion, and most particularly, persistence. The Fascist and Communist overlords may only be intrusive capitalist grey-suits in music world North America, but idealistic musicians didn't sell out in the 60s, or after, when the $$ (and therefore pressure) increased.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 2292 (view)
Posted: 8/29/2009 11:23:59 PM
bm, I had a passing desire to disembowel myself in the sign of the cross upon reading Mr Bufuyutu's elegant fuuiku, but gathered, instead, this fuuiku threnody, my first try at the curious form. Apologies for any laxness in my beginner's mind. (With a bow to my sensei, Mr Kudzu Hashimoto.)


Wayfarer of grog
holy holy the sandals alight
with butane galaxies of white chopsticks sucking
the yang-dong dynasty of doom.

O little one, lost
in drink
are pallbearers of cum-soaked sheets
hazarding a sushi

julep fermenting in ease
next the supine garter snake
which twists like a geisha upended in sixty-nine.

Knee-pads of blue,
you paint lines of Tang between
cordons of silk nestling in breweries
of love, coagulating night-
mares jimmying jockey shorts from lagoons of nocturnal bandwidths
of phalli enshrouded black.
O warm succubi, flit me down
the cold avenues of gonorrhea. Quick!

Bold frescoes, wrong summers, grand rapiers of cement-tongues,
finish me off with
downy mouths indecent.
Strum allegros, moisture
in rivulets of desire incommoding fish
hairpinning a policy wonk
to a donor's pillow recumbent with

tangentials. Mooning you with hairy twin moons, it
looms hard and fast, revolving in step
with the hairy clam and the curved pestle.
Wrap this salami in mint
and chase the bent path close to my hard heart,
waxy in glorious dew.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 11 (view)
Should I Reply?
Posted: 8/28/2009 10:45:02 PM
suey, don't worry about the age "difference". There are a lot of other differences that are impossible to negotiate, this isn't one of them. Maturity often has nothing to do with age. You could be compatible that way.

Talk about yourself for a while, then ask her an open-ended question to do with her own interests. Give-and-take. The key is not to hog the coversation, nor to be a receptive, silent doormat. Strike a balance.

You'll find out soon enough if there's a mutual possibility for more.

Good luck.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 487 (view)
Haiku Connection - This is It !
Posted: 8/28/2009 10:09:34 PM
understanding love
is a game for fence sitters --
fall and break some bones
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 59 (view)
What made 60's music so great?
Posted: 8/26/2009 8:26:30 PM
[quoteI'm not going to try to convince you cynics of the significance of the 60's

Why am I a cynic? Because I have a clear head, and a balanced one, regarding the muddled gushings of unnuanced social hyperbole masquerading as comprehensive music criticism? That I don't conflate personal feelings with musical assessment? I happened to have lived through the 60s, unlike another poster on this board swooning over the 60s, and I was a happy kid at the time. So what? The forum, and the thread, is to do with discussion of music. You've framed the original arguement, such as that is here, rather amorphously, in post #1. "What made the 60s music so great"? Well, right there, aside from the forced agreement, lies your buying in, first off, to the media's facile (yet effectively serviceable) obsession with dividing "periods" into set decades. For instance, musically, culturally, across-the-board artistically, it would be more useful (though still a faulty paradigm) to look at music (e.g.) from '55-'65 as one period, and '66 -'75 as the next period. But that doesn't have the glib and simple ring to it that "30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s" etc have. Much more fruitful would be a discussion, (just to use one example), where "60s" music (whatever the hell that is) could be compared and contrasted to previous and future periods in topics of commerciality, technology, virtuosity, influence, composition, performance commemoration vs satire vs breaking ties, and on and on. But if we're to follow your fuzzy lead, where can we go? I've tried to broaden the jumbled topic with a few perspectives, directly answering some of your floating puzzlement, but all I get is facile labels. So be it.

Hey rory27, give me back my goddamn nostalgia, OK? At least I can be nostalgic of a period called "The Love Generation." What was your generation known for that you're going to recall with fond memories? I'd rather be a diluted old fool with memories of a kinder, gentler time of projected brotherly love than a cynical modern day punk that thinks the world revolves around him!

Before you stick your other foot next to the first one, thereby making communication impossible instead of just surreal, I'll trouble you to note that I'm only five years your senior. If that's a generational difference, then we improbably had twenty of them last century.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 56 (view)
Chapter I: Down the Rabbit-Hole
Posted: 8/26/2009 3:13:56 AM
post 1 balboa:

What made 60's music so great?

This is the positive obverse to "When did you stop beating your wife?" Well, er, hmm, I, uh, (sigh).

One explanation could be that following the repressed 50’s

Stop right there at that 1st assumptive clause, and let's play that back at 33 1/3. The 50s, in the U.S. and Canada, were, by most artistic measures, smokin' (and occasionally seminal): Lowell's Life Studies, Layton's A Red Carpet For The Sun (in poetry); Bellow's Adventures of Augie March (novel); the too-many-to-count great blues concerts and recordings by the Chicagoans; TV competing with radio for "content", some of it raw and relevant, to point to just a few areas of fascination.

The "repressed 50s" mantra is an unthinking response to Eisenhower and the (still) "uncool" nuclear family. Just as in the radical takeover of university by ideologues (cite: Horowitz'
The Professors
), making a mockery and horror of liberal John Hersey's call for student power and compassion (Yale alumnus), the 50s have been the convenient scapegoat for all that's wrong, repressed, and oppressive, even to now. It's a facile, narrow-minded, and ridiculous view.

And to be completely biased, I was born in the 50s and could sing on key in the crib (cite: my mother), some of my enthusiasm coming, no doubt, from the strains on the Fleetwood console and the tube radio.

Lyrics like, “I’m like a one eyed cat peeking in a seafood store” and "Whip out your Big Ten Inch (record)" really steamed up grandpa’s glasses

Ah, yes, we're still in that squaresville mindset, where the "enlightened" 60s promoters can look down on those boring old fogeys listening to big band schmos in grey suits. Nothing to do with the music, though. Nothing to do with reality, either. Squares are so in any age; sanctimonious idealists are so in any age.

Here's a hint: parents were more "repressed", if you will, in the 60s, concerning their kids' musical habits, than was the similar scenario in the 50s because the by-then entrenched media had made the stakes higher. The "breakout" you refer to was pegged to increased media airtime, and hence, influence. Again, nothing to do with the music itself being revolutionary or (necessarily) more exciting.

The real mystery is how so many extraordinary bands like The Beatles, The Stones, The Who, Cream and The Kinks came pouring out of England in the 60’s. One theory is that there was such a multitude of bands coming from England at the time, a fair share of them would have to be good. But this doesn’t explain why they were coming from England in the first place. England had never been known for their music before the 60’s.

Alan Lomax, with his father, from '37 to '42 collected, for the Archive of Folk Song of the Library of Congress, over ten thousand recordings from the U.S., Caribbean, Ireland, U.K. Spain, and Italy. He also produced concerts, recordings, and radio shows in England (and the U.S. -- he "rediscovered" Ledbelly and Son House in the 50s). He produced concerts and recordings of gamelan, klezmer, jazz, brass bands, and "hill" music. He lived in England throughout the 50s and produced the 18 volume (!) Columbia World Library of Folk and Primitive Music, as well as working with long-standing English musicians and producers.

Oh, and Benjamin Britten in another genre was composing some pretty far-out stuff, man, in England, pre-60s.

int. velvet msg 54:

60's music was the voice of generational empowerment. thats what made it so great

Yeah, and that San Fran poetry nonsense got transplanted to Vancouver via the Beats/Olson/axis of "evil". We haven't recovered from it yet. In music, the idealism only came to the fore because of one reason: the protestors, themselves were due to be drafted into Vietnam(cite: A History of our Time, Chafe and Sitcoff.) It was a selfish response, a far cry from the conscience of a nation. As long as it was some poor black kid from the South getting the call, it was peace/love/rock'n'roll.

snapington msg 55:

All you have to do is look at the Billboard charts for proof I did in fact out of 500 songs only three had anything to do with any kind of empowerment or protest

Indeed. The overblown nostalgia serves a need. "In these dark times" the collective wish is to go back to a supposedly innocent era, conveniently shoehorned into "the 60s".

late msg 56:

if I ever encountered someone (less than 55 y/o) humming "Knock 3 Times" on the way to work I would be seriously creeped out.

This is not only creepy, but horrific. I'm serious. It reminds me of the scene in the original Poltergeist movie where the mysterious evil spirit hums and sings in jaunty fashion, under his breath, "God is in His holy place".
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 3 (view)
Why is poems/quotes not next to stories/creative writing?
Posted: 8/26/2009 1:01:00 AM
Thanks, humor, and welcome back, late.

It's a pet peeve of mine when poetry is reflexively equated with "love stuff". (Not that there's anything wrong with love stuff.)
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 2 (view)
Why is poems/quotes not next to stories/creative writing?
Posted: 8/24/2009 10:22:07 PM
Poems, verse, doggerel are demarcated as literary apogees from prose. "Stories", historically, imply a narrative mode, whereas poems are dominated by a lyrical mode (which has nothing, intrinsically, to do with subjects of "love"). Poems are also set off by, amongst other qualities, compression, heightened crafting, organic metaphorical structuring, heightened emotion, aesthetic concentration, sonic pleasure and aptness in conjunction with its content. Even where a narrative strain exists in canonical poetry (Frost, Simpson, Shakespeare, Milton, i.e.), lyricism still dominates the narrative.

Stories, tales, yarns, accounts, anecdotes, typically belong to prose stylings where exposition, comprehensiveness, and "plainer" messaging are sought.

"Creative writing" is a catch-all for just about anything.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 1716 (view)
welcome to stash for junkers
Posted: 8/19/2009 12:56:12 AM
Glub glub, that reminds me of part of Ethereal Beauty #27 --
"I lean like a one-stumped drunk
And spot Davy Jones’ locker scurrying me back, --"
Puzzled fish wincing with pincers extended in a noose
Or halo of boredom. "Try that on", go the scuttlefry,
"And rest your tank on my weary rainbow gills,
festering with gout and Evinrude ammonia."
(At about this time, Father Warhammer knocks over
A chalice of Baby Retrogade Red and ransacks
The pulpit floor-square for a missing Bibliosity.)
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 1709 (view)
writing for bone-holders 102
Posted: 8/15/2009 12:44:29 AM
'Twas a deep and starry night out of step with the times.
The times? Drowned in a surfeit of wax wings
And alligator tears. There's a cougar loose
In the neighbourhood, this one, far from Mr. Rogers
With his scratchy turtleneck and creepy smile
Pimping for Mr. Clean and Lemon Pledge,
The allegiance failing to materialize
Until after the scriptwriters and the sales pitch
Went to ball four with four outs. On the outs
With a Mabel too far to go to to see with twos and tens.
Those times, I said, misbegotten, fugue of a romance
Where wastrels applaud the revolving screen credits
And palm the last of the Cap'n Morgan, sloshing
It into the tupperware cube. O label of fortune.
Fortunate empire of youth! Stricken with leprosy scabs
Of cotton wool in the anvils of both ears, stopped up
With constipated dismemberments of post-modern
Self-consciousness, the times roll on like a bad underarm
Product returning the acetephenabutamophedrinated-
Worshipping consumers into the hammocks of their fate.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 3397 (view)
Posted: 8/14/2009 9:38:47 PM
"More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly."

-- Woody Allen
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 3396 (view)
Posted: 8/13/2009 7:28:45 PM
" The best job that was ever offered to
me was to become a landlord in a brothel. In my opinion it’s the
perfect milieu for an artist to work in. It gives him perfect economic
freedom; he’s free of fear and hunger; he has a roof over his
head and nothing whatever to do except keep a few simple
accounts and to go once every month and pay off the local police.
The place is quiet during the morning hours, which is the best time
of the day to work. There’s enough social life in the evening, if he
wishes to participate, to keep him from being bored."

--William Faulkner
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 3395 (view)
Posted: 8/12/2009 11:53:02 PM
"Men of profound sorrow give themselves away when they are happy: they have a way of grasping happiness as if they wanted to crush and smother it, from jealousy -- alas, they know too well that it will flee away."

-- Nietzsche
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 3390 (view)
Posted: 8/11/2009 11:57:23 PM
"Konstantin Paustovsky tells the story of Bagrov, a young student revolutionary during the reign of Nicholas II, who shot Minister Stolypin dead at the Kiev opera and was sentenced to be hanged. He accepted his fate with equanimity: 'What possible difference can it make to me if I eat two thousand fewer meatballs in my life?' "

-- Stanley Kunitz
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 28 (view)
Any Leonard Cohen fans out there?
Posted: 8/7/2009 1:54:43 AM
Hi, Sophia, yes, I also enjoy The Book Of Longing. Actually, parts of Slaves, and pretty much all of Death Of A Lady's Man I'm less than partial to (slight and discursive at times), but his early work is pretty consistently good. Don't have a set fave, but here's a rich one from Spice-Box.


Under her grandmother's patchwork quilt
a calico bird's-eye view
of crops and boundaries
naming dimly the districts of her body
sleeps my Annie like a perfect lady

Like ages of weightless snow
on tiny oceans filled with light
her eyelids enclose deeply
a shade tree of birthday candles
one for every morning
until the now of sleeping

The small banner of blood
kept and flown by Brother Wind
long after the pierced bird fell down
is like her red mouth
among the squalls of pillow

Bearers of evil fancy
of dark intention and corrupting fashion
who come to rend the quilt
plough the eye and ground the mouth
will contend with mighty Mother Goose
and Farmer Brown and all good stories
of invincible belief
which surround her sleep
like the golden weather of a halo

Well-wishers and her true lover
may stay to watch my Annie
sleeping like a perfect lady
under her grandmother's patchwork quilt
but they must promise to whisper
and to vanish by morning -
all but her one true lover.


(edit: sorry for the runaway italics, can't edit it out)
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 26 (view)
Any Leonard Cohen fans out there?
Posted: 8/6/2009 7:00:40 PM
Sophia posts with perspective in #24. I find it curious that every poster has hopped on the music, but not the poetry (not the same thing). This is the poetry forum, and there's a Cohen appreciation thread in the arts/music forum from some time ago. I wonder what the fans here think is the best poem (and why) amongst his Flowers For Hitler, The Spice-Box of Earth, or The Energy of Slaves?
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 100 (view)
terse verse of curses, firsts and worsts
Posted: 7/26/2009 4:42:10 PM
I think it's sawdust and bat guano and silver bullets.
Bonds, when juiced, could deposit 'em four hundred feet.
'Course, he got "ahead" of the count, and would pull it
Down the foul line, past the recalcitrant rose of pete.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 98 (view)
terse verse of curses, firsts and worsts
Posted: 7/26/2009 4:23:13 PM
A Louisville Slugger isn't an impediment
To shagging in the field, the sewn-shut balls
Bouncing off the outfield wall, settling on sediment.
It's those toothpick pluckers, I hear, that appall.

Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 94 (view)
Terse, etc 4 lines (without coke)
Posted: 7/7/2009 2:22:09 PM

farriers my terrier

I once had a furry terrier
Who liked to jump over cement barriers
Until, one day, he landed in the arms
Of a crossdressing quick-triggered gendarme.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 12 (view)
Eyes Wide Shut: quite possibly the most misunderstood movie of all-time?
Posted: 7/7/2009 12:25:33 AM
TheBigAndy, that's an interesting take on Eyes Wide Shut, but if that's the whole point (a trivial hinge to hang an entire movie on), then the laughable and sudden epiphany at movie's end subverts the premise.

Laughable, also, is the turning point, the silly scene (as one astute critic put it, the Cruise-Kidman combo acted more drunk than stoned) where (shock of shocks!) the Cruise character finds out that his wife has had fantasies of infidelity. And this leads a medical Doc, who's been married for years, to go weaving through the streets on a goofy personal sexual fact-finding pilgrimage? Plausible, perhaps, if he were twenty. A late 30s MD that's thatnaive?

The movie had nothing to say, and no means of saying it. But some of the silent mood shifts (in setting, not abysmal acting) were interesting. Kubrick's talent hadn't evaporated, after all.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 92 (view)
Terse, etc 4 lines (without coke)
Posted: 7/6/2009 8:44:36 PM
Rat tail soup next a marrow-dense hambone.
Call the best chef on the special red phone.
Fluid so thick it's tongue-tricked in the zone.
What's that? Betty in the shower outing a moan.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 90 (view)
Terse, etc 4 lines (without coke)
Posted: 7/5/2009 9:47:19 PM
Aghh! Ughh! Oooo! Awww!
It's a rathead holding a tiger paw
In jaws of gristle, in mistletoe. Pshaw!
I'll cram this poem in its rancid jaw.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 2222 (view)
Shall We Play??????
Posted: 7/5/2009 8:31:38 PM

My nose was a dried, dusted, rotten mushroom,
And though I bleached my face with Ajax
I still ended up, wholesale, in the tomb.
Goes to show how hollow are payoffs to the max.

Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 4427 (view)
Posted: 5/20/2009 8:17:11 PM
A respite from the corporate lie
is only in dreams, my friend, we've locked up your pension
along with your balls in this fireproof safe.
Grey your answers and grey your aura.
Fire your soul, and collect no payment.
We don't steal because it's all ours.
Don't pass go, the whole board's a jail
Where you'll spin in chance with unannounced bail.
Joined: 2/14/2005
Msg: 4423 (view)
Posted: 5/20/2009 7:57:37 PM
thinking nothing once or twice
or a third go 'round
is a pleasant way to spend an afternoon
as it spools lubriciously along the hot walk, flecked humans,
like clotted weeds, spreading in fugal waves as they pass
and, tired and sated, a metaphysical sniper
sleeps on his paper rifle
on the corrugated steep roof eave.
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