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 Author Thread: Gentlemen, how long would you date a woman IF she wouldn't let you kiss her?
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 61 (view)
 
Gentlemen, how long would you date a woman IF she wouldn't let you kiss her?
Posted: 8/12/2010 5:54:22 PM
I find it interesting that a lot of men say they don't like women with rules..yet, they have their own, by saying it has to be the first, second, third whatever...that's your rule...but, that's ok? You don't have any issues because you need to have things on your timeline? But, a woman does?

I have no rules..I kiss a guy when I feel like kissing him..different with every guy really, but, personally, I know much sooner than 5 or 6 dates..and I never want to waste anybody's time, knowing how valuable men see it..God forbid they had to spend time with someone ( or worse , spend money) and she didn't do what he wanted her to do, or he didn't get that return on investment..

I think some men don't understand that some women are different..I can be attracted to a guy, and still not be ready to kiss him..because , unlike most men, physical attraction ain't enough for me..men usually know right away that they are attracted to a woman, and want to be physical...when I see a "hot" guy my first thought isn't about "doing" him..it's actually: Wonder what he is like? Turning on my mind is much more important to getting there than chemistry or looks, and sometimes that takes more than one date...and unlike most men, where it apparently never happens...men have grown on me after a date or two...and suddenly I see him in a different light..

IF a guy really likes me, and I've made it clear I like him..then he wouldn't pressure/shame or guilt me into going somewhere I am not ready to go yet ( which is a teenage tactic)...he would respect my boundaries , and that would likely get him farther along the path he wants to go, quicker, than making demands....

IMO...while the Op's friend using an arbitrary time/number of dates isn't going to protect her like I suspect she thinks it will ( from hurt feelings)...men who have their own rules or demands about when a woman should kiss, or anything else, aren't any better...

This should be a shared process that goes at it's own pace, and happens naturally/spontaneously...neither side dictating when/if/how...it appears in today's society that both genders are a bit too focused on "What's in it for me?....and how soon...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 33 (view)
 
She cleaned the house ... should I marry her?
Posted: 6/23/2010 12:35:23 PM
Yeah, but, he's got big balls...roflmao...


Op: are you sure she just didn't clean in order to trap you into marrying her? You know how women are...teehee

Say yes, for Gawd's sake...you guys are my hope in shining armor example...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 831 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/14/2010 6:24:04 AM

Oh My God. If it were a woman getting cheated on wow it would be viewed so differently by these same women. More crap for sure. ABSOLUTLY NEVER WILL THERE EVER BE A LEGIT REASON FOR CHEATTING. LEAVE THEN DO AS YOU PLEASE. This is just stupid.


Um Cowboy..itsmargo..who you quoted, is a woman, and she was cheated on...no double standard there...

I don't think you get what is being said...no one said there is any good reason to cheat, that it is a proper response to being unhappy..what people are saying is that most often when cheating evolves ( not a serial cheater) over a period of time...something wrong in the relationship probably triggered that, or made the temptation easier..this is not about excusing their behavior..it is about looking to your own to see how you may have contributed to what happened, or how you may have been able to avert it...that led to the dissatisfaction the happened...from a female point of view..while again, I don't think this is an excuse..but, say I was married and cut off the sex , no explanation, no attempting to fix it..and just got more adamant as time went on...while the proper response to this isn't for someone to cheat...I can't say with a straight face that my cutting off the sex( if I did) did not help faciliate this very thing from happening...

It isn't about the cheater..you can't control another persons behavior..however, you certainly can behave in ways that are conducive to getting along, fixing problems..self reflection is a good, healthy thing..it ideally keeps you from making the same mistakes over and over..and it doesn't absolve the other person from their part..it just helps you from creating a situation where your behavior helped facilitate what went wrong..or, at the least, failed to help fix it...

MR Evil: I have said similar things a few times on here, but, no one ever addresses it, particularly the few men who have even posted...I think your commment that men want action and women want process is very accurate..and that's the part we all need to undertand and learn to compromise about...IMO..I , for one, would love to hear more men talk about how they see this instead of blaming women for just being "wrong"....
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 828 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/13/2010 1:36:00 PM
I, for one would be interested itsmargo...

Does anyone know why all my forum screens are now wrapping around? I can't read any of them without scrolling left and right..thought it was my browser settings, though I didn't change anything..but, it's the same at work where I have Explorer...and home where I have Firefox....
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 817 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 9:27:59 PM

Who are you saying this to? Everyone but yourself, it seems.


Yeah , the phrase: Practice what you preach comes to mind...

The whole premise of women are responsible for most initiations, because there is something inherently wrong with them, and they must be stopped, is just offensive...

Changing the court system to be more fair is already in place where I live...that is a realistic goal , and doesn't assign blame to one gender or the other...but, it still really only addresses marriages with children...which are only about half of them...and not the non marriage ones...

I maintain that if more women actually initiate the break ups, which may be true, though hard to prove statistically..it's more about the differences in men and women and how they process/handle discontent/what they find important..than any kind of universal flaw in a whole gender...either gender...

Giving women rights changed their ability to get a divorce...not no faults...no faults were put into place for both genders,,,which primarily, financially, work better for both, but , especially the party with more to lose financially...which , though changing, still tends to be more men than women..

I, and most of the women I know...didn't get break up with anyone, or divorce anyone just because they could, or because they thought they'd be better off financially...

You can't take the right to break up or divorce away from women or men, for that matter...because you don't agree with why they are doing it...everyone is free to make their own mistakes or not...

You can' t police this kind of moral behavior...as tempting as some seem to think it is....
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 372 (view)
 
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 5/10/2010 9:11:46 PM
Intent is important to me regardless of the action...

If you are nice( chivalrous) because you want something in return...that is not good...or being nice...
If you are nice ( chivalrous) just because that is who you are...that is good...

A man who does anything with the intent of impressing me so that I will do what he wants me to do...whatever that is...is never impressive..

A man who does nice things because that's how he thinks it should be, or because he respects me..that is impressive...

Intent is everything..even in the good/bad guy thing...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 51 (view)
 
Tougher Rules for the Official Guy?
Posted: 5/10/2010 8:34:39 PM

This, IMO, is portraying yourself in a favorable way until the hook is set. Justification for long courtships and a lot of testing.


Though I get what you are saying, I don't think this was the case at all...we knew each other for over 8 years before we got married...we were actually just friends for most of that time...we knew everything about each other..the problem was I didn't realize ( or ignored, or thought wasn't serious) how traditional he was about marriage and a woman's role in it...and he evidently didn't realize the opposite about me ( or ignored, or most likely thought would suddenly change)..for instance...I never wanted children...and he knew this from way back when we first became friends in high school..it had always been that way...I always said it wasn't going to change...but, I think he thought it would...I knew he was pretty conservative religiously...but, I either thought it wouldn't matter, because it hadn't so far, or , thought he'd mellow with age ( which he did..but too late to matter)..

I maintain that something happens once you get married..something subtle and not even conscious for most people...that's is different than just living together or knowing each other a long time..suddenly, as itsmargo said..things that were ok when we weren't married...weren't anymore...there is a sense of "higher expectations", even ownership of a kind, in his case at least...being a "liberated" woman was ok for working purposes , but any other manifestations of it suddenly weren't anymore...and I was no different than I had always been...on my side, he wasn't any different either...I just failed to see the significance of it once we were married...


That's one of the key elements for a good relationship. People that are easy to get along with are easy-going, non-demanding, few expectations, generally happy with themselves


I think you either misunderstood me, or I expressed it wrong...I'm so easy going, I feel like expressing any needs is being demanding...so, I don't express them till maybe when it gets critical, and it's too late...what I meant to say is: I need to learn to express my needs without feeling I'm being demanding, or self centered or selfish..because that's how it always feels to me...but, then if they never get met. or if he doesn't even know what they are...I start really feeling like I am not loved, and I am being mistreated...and then I beat myself up for not asking in the first place...or , for not being worthy of them being met....
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 46 (view)
 
Tougher Rules for the Official Guy?
Posted: 5/10/2010 4:24:05 PM
If I have one rule for myself if I ever decide to move in or marry someone again...it is that we will both discuss expectations before hand...if I had to point to one major error both my ex husband and I made,,,it was the expectations we had of each other that were different as husband and wife, than they were of boyfriend/girlfriend even...we both assumed the other just knew what they were...automatically...and we both got terribly disappointed/hurt when the other didn't live up to these expectations...

I think most people, whether conscious of it or not, have a list of what they expect their SO to do/or how to behave once a relationship becomes serious...most are probably reasonable expectations, some are not...but, again... the problem seems to always come back to: poor communication...I had to learn the hard way that my ex could not read my mind, he had no clue what I wanted/needed..and I was unable to properly tell him..partly because of conditioning that it was "bad" to ask for anything you need...if people didn't offer it..then you didn't deserve it...thus, I went around believing I didn't deserve any of it...because it wasn't offered...which just made the whole situation worse...

There are some things, quite reasonable things, that anyone can have an expectation of in a serious relationship..but, it your partner doesn't know what they are...how can they even begin to offer them...I don't think any of us are born with an inborn knowledge of how is the best way to show love to someone ( and keeping in mind it isn't the same for everyone), and I know I have had trouble knowing how to express my needs/desires generally anyway..at least in a language the men I have known understood...lol...

It wasn't fair to them...and I am trying to not let it ever happen again....isn't easy, for sure...and even when I think I'm being clear or concise...it turns out I am often not...lol..

Great Topic Igor...

Bottom line for me: I have to learn to express my needs in a clear, non demanding way...been working on that..
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 800 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 8:15:29 AM

With the reactions I have gotten I MUST HAVE STRUCK A NERVE!!!!


YEAH...In my case I think it was the "nerve" that made me initiate my divorce...

Ditto what Forums1 said....
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 12 (view)
 
Strong and INDEPENDENT?
Posted: 5/8/2010 1:28:35 PM
I think that partly because it has been for some time been drilled into women's heads that anything other than strong and independent is bad and weak...they want to make sure you know they aren't "dependent and weak"..as so many men now a days find that repulsive..

I agree with Igor in that traditional isn't necessarily weak...you can be both,.,emphasizing the strong and independent part will make you look overbearing though, also..I assume that men will know I am strong and independent while talking to me, and that I am also traditional and not overbearing at the same time...

I'm of the group that says you can be strong and independent...and see need to be intra dependent in a romantic relationship...needing another human isn't weak...overbearing neediness and dependency is..and unhealthy...but, they aren't the same thing..
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 783 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/8/2010 12:54:53 PM
anathasia: BOB: Battery Operated Boyfriend....
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 781 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/8/2010 12:33:16 PM


Really? How about when I relayed my life experiences they were dismissed and I was told they were irrelevant.
Yet yours was met with acceptance. Why do you think that is? Could it be that they showed the woman in a negative light?
If it is so easy for people to believe your experiences but are down right hostile to mine.


MJ: First of all, quit making this a you against me thing..it isn't..maybe some other people just identified with or UNDERSTOOD me better than you..I have been trying to communicate with you , along with others ,for days and many pages...and yet, you still haven't understood anything I've said..I haven't been vague or obtuse, or used code either...why do you think that is?

I don't remember anyone saying your experiences were irrelevant..I do remember some saying they weren't representative of the whole and certainly not the majority based on personal experiences and other women we know..they don't have a lot of relevance as regards: why women initiate...because, not being either a woman or a mind reader..you don't personally know the reasons...you have some guesses...

They took some of my observations about domestic law as valid...because of my experience.,.nothing to do with being female or male...

I also never implied all men were like that,.,.or even that they were "evil" in any way, in fact, I kept stressing differences, not defects...


Why is it so hard for you to believe there are women out there that use men to profit, whether it is in a marriage or just a relationship?


I don't believe it isn't true, I believe it isn't a majority, nor one of the more common reasons women initiate break ups....


Did you not belittled me by saying your experiences are more important than mine to draw a conclusion off of.


Nope..I said your experiences were not representative of mine, or any of the women I personally know...wasn't belittling yours..just saying they aren't common enough to use as a template...


In other words I have said both sexes have there own problems communicating.......Hardly myopic don't you think?


What,specifically , do men have trouble with in communicating..besides, not understanding women...which is really our fault for not making you understand?


However many of your gender did make the statement the "all men are evil"


Not a one...in fact, I don't remember anyone saying categorically, all men were bad even...just that a lot of men are difficult at best to communicate with...


In all my post I have said it takes two however in you post you said it didn't matter if you had done everything just as he wanted he would not treated you as you thought he should.
That sounds like to me you are saying it was all his fault!!!


Nope..never said it was all his fault..even mentioned once or twice what my fault was...regardless of if I was willing to make total personality changes ( which I tried, and then gave up..also keeping in mind...there was absolutely nothing about me that he didn't already know from the 8 years before we got married...there were no surprises or sudden changes of behavior) or not...he wouldn't have treated me any different..because the way he was treating me was part of his personality...he would have ( at the time, he has since learned from the past) treated any woman the same way..he didn't mistreat me because he thought I was "bad" or anything..he mistreated me because he didn't think there was anything wrong with how he handled things...communicated..


My views are misogynistic because I say a small number of women are using the current laws to profit from divorce or divorce because they want to with disregard to all others.
However your experiences you say have shown you many men have bad traits, and there is nothing wrong with that view.

Please explain the difference as it escapes me.


Tone and declarative statements...what's inferred but not actually said...all the stuff you say when you aren't saying " a small number"..and if it's so small...how much use is it in fixing the problem? Wouldn't knowing the larger picture be more use in preventing it from happening? If there is overwhelming evidence that more women have other reasons, which are often in agreement, wouldn't those be the reasons to discuss? Not the small minority?

There appears to be more men with poor communication skills than women who use divorce laws to screw men over...


One more point if I used the same standard that Zangie so proudly, I WOULD think all women are like this.


I have no idea what "standard" you are referring to, or the proudly part..but, I can assure...I never said all men or all women anything...I never do..especially in here where people can get hyper sensitive if you do....even by accident...


For example one lady said when she was crying she just wanted him to hold her. How was he supposed to know this did she reach her arms out to him, or did she just expect him to know?


I believe this was me...in the beginning, I'm sure I assumed/expected that he knew this automatically...because it was self evident to me ..no one ever told /taught me that men didn't think the same or see things the same way as I , particularly on issues such as these...after this happened many times..I learned to verbalize...and I was specific: "Unless I come to you and say: I have a problem and need your input/advice on how to resolve it...if I am upset , and haven't discussed why...what I most likely want is your emotional support....not a fix, certainly not a critique of me and/or my flaws/failings...and I don't always know exactly why yet...I'll figure that out later...right now I just want your support...when I figure out why, if it involves you or affects us both...I'll talk to you about it..

This didn't work either..then we went to marriage counseling where the counselor helped me be even more articulate /clear, and discuss the underlying "issue " ( which itsmargo so aptly described)that was the real conflict...didn't change a thing...he thought my way was wrong, and his was right..and he couldn't be convinced otherwise...

I initiate when I get to a point, that no action/effort on my part will make things any better...and my partner isn't willing to do their part in making it better,..and I don't blindside them,,,and while I'm sure I have hurt men in my past...I have rarely deliberately hurt or been mean to anyone...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 727 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/6/2010 7:41:13 PM
MJ: not that you will listen, because you haven't yet...No Faults have to be agreed to by both parties...if the parties don't agree..it is converted to a standard divorce...attendant with all the fighting back and forth, or who' s more at fault, eventually leading either to an agreement both parties can live with, or a trial where both sides present their points and the judge decides who gets/does what...

No Faults, by definition, can not force anyone to get divorced or do anything they don't agree to..they are used by adults who can be civil about their break up...and want to not spend a lot of money arguing over everything..they are agreements...if the other side doesn't want to agree...it is no longer a no fault..it's a contested divorce..

So, I'm not getting your point where these make it easier for women to get divorced...they make it easier and less stressful and more civilized...and way cheaper for either gender to get divorced...and actually, I see more men suggesting them than women..it almost always is a better deal financially for the one who has the higher income, and they can negotiate they own terms, almost always more favorable and less costly than letting the judge do it...they weren't created to favor women, they were created to make divorces less acrimonious, and not tie up the courts with petty arguing...or, vindictiveness...which still exists in those who insist on making it that way...if you want people penalized for who is more at fault...with the exception of extreme behaviors...that is hard to quantify...who decides that? Slippery slope... It is in a contested divorce that fault comes into play..and that would be where financial punishments for bad behaviors ( not that I believe this should exist) would take place...not a no fault...

By the way..I don't have stats...but, being female, I have some authority to comment on why women initiate break ups, and working in the field , I have some authority to comment on how domestic law works, ..but, besides that...I don't think anyone said my "stats" were better...I think they said my reasoning made more sense, and my presentation was clearer and less confrontational...

You have to quit believing that most women are saying all men are evil or defective...you are projecting..some women said men they have known were not men they wanted to stay with... and gave reasons why...not any different than the behaviors of women you yourself said were un acceptable...

I'd really like to hear your answer to itsmargo's question...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 711 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/6/2010 1:38:41 PM
Thank you Jinx for the kind words...and topchef for some stats, and everyone else for their more "logical" responses...lol..I, after all, only have my memory...lol...

MJ: I think you are a person who sees the world in a very black and white way...and doesn't accept anything that isn't supported by "the facts" ( or, at least the facts as you see them)...there are, as Alpha pointed out, other ways to make intelligent conclusions or express ideas...and as itsmargo said: stats are just a tool, a starting off point..they don't express the reasons behind why they say what they do...that is normally interpreted with critical thinking , and looking at all other sources of information, and actually talking to people who are part of the group being compiled, to get real life experiences...and the sample is never totally representative...because it would be nigh on impossible to poll every person who was a part of that group...

I am very much a "grey" person..there is very little I see as black and white..I am also, in Briggs Meyers terms...an off the chart ENFP..what this means simply is that I am not detail oriented, I make decisions based on how I feel about something more often than not, and I use my intuition to form a lot of my opinions and beliefs, and I am very much a "people" person...my "memory" of how things work at my law firm, isn't about compiling specific numbers to back up what I see to be true..I "intuit" that it is true...and it is just as valid a tool as using numbers, and in my case, the way I operate best...I find people and their experiences to be very valuable for myself in determining trends, or behaviors...

My ex was very much like you..he saw the world in numbers, grids and black and white..anything that didn't fit into this vision was difficult for him to even understand , let alone accept..people who can only see the world from one viewpoint..are generally considered to be narrow minded at best,,,close minded at worst...whichever view it is...I strongly favor the more intuitive way, but do not discount the value of more rational or logical..they both have a place..This profound difference in our way of thinking is the biggest reason we couldn't resolve anything...because I couldn't "prove" to him, in a way he understood, why what I felt was valid...so, he dismissed it as irrelevant, flawed, and weak ( and only in my "memory"...lol)...and he wouldn't consider, at the time, trying to see it from my point of view...he was convinced he was right and I was wrong...

I haven't bashed men in general, I haven't even bashed my ex...just explained how different we were, and why we didn't succeed...at no time did I blame only him, or men in general either...you read into anything that is said that is possibly negative about a man...as saying " all men are bad" and responsible..this is your myopic view, and your blinders...you give lip service to men having any responsibility for the breakdowns in communication, and yet, accuse women of doing the same thing...

Even with all your stats and facts...you do NOT make logical sense in your conclusions, most of the time...but, the real issue here is that you can not stop yourself from doing what you accuse women of doing...blaming a whole gender for the ills of the world...while using unrelated "stats" to supposedly back up your opinion...you are condescending in responding to most women, you have belittled me on several occasions for just having an opinion you don't agree with, you dismiss almost anything I have said out of hand, you are convinced in your "rightness"...and I have to tell you...this kind of behavior from men does upset me enough to eventually initiate a break up..and as alpha said...I have seen this enough that any man who is reasonable, and listens at least, without insulting me, or insisting on my "wrongness" ...really stands head and shoulders above the rest...

Men are not all to blame....but, if you want an answer to why women initiate more break ups...there have been plenty of answers given..and most did not say "ALL" men...you can't seem to accept the fact that sometimes women leave because they aren't happy with the behavior of the man in question..and that some traits we have experienced enough times to wonder if it isn't something common to many men...

BTW: Cheating is wrong. ( One of my few black and white beliefs...lol)...I don't really care who does it more often or not by gender, it's still wrong..but "finding a better guy" does not mean she cheated..reasonable, morally centered adults end one relationship before starting another..you are again, interpreting a "stat" to mean more than it does...you also only had comments on how all those reasons were somehow the result of bad behavior by women...you truly believe men are better by virtue of being male , and that any bad behavior they exhibit had to be "caused" by a woman...where does that inherent misogyny come from?

EDIT to add:

Guys, I can't speak for all women...but, are you sure this is what happens? Because trust me...if I am with someone long term, and come to not like some behavior enough to end it...it is a serious thing...not about some minor flaw...I think some women may express it as minor flaws because many aren't good at articulating what exactly is wrong, or able to even verbalize it...it almost always is a combination of many things, or a general behavior that permeates many areas...I don't know any adult women who really think men are perfect or should be...what they often do think is that there are some specific behaviors they can not live with anymore...and since men can be quite adamant about not changing the status quo, or that there really is any problem..it is a difficult thing to fix..I really think both genders misread each other on a regular basis and come to the wrong conclusions based on their own thought patterns..that's why it's so important to not only communicate , but with an open mind, and less defensiveness...I learned that the hard way...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 681 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/5/2010 3:32:49 PM

Why? Because I would truly like to know about how the women think so I can understand them better.


You have categorically dismissed almost every female response, with the exception of a few who seemed to you to somehow support what you were saying...open minded means listening to what people say with an open mind..not a pre determined resolve to dismiss anything you don't agree with...

It also means actually listening...as in:



But when reading your post you never mention your part in that only his.


I have repeatedly, as in more than once..taken responsibility for my own character flaws or weaknesses, probably to a bigger extent than I normally would on a forum..just to show I don't blame him entirely( or all men)...all I can blame him for, is refusing to cooperate to fix what was wrong on his end...if you listened, you would know this...unless you just have all of us female posters mixed up as one voice and don't remember who has said what..I have repeatedly, while trying to be fair, acknowledged my part, and understood where some men are coming from on some of the issues, I even discussed how I have tried to alter my behavior to be better understood....the bottom line is: in the end I was unhappy enough , with no possibility to fix it...to initiate the break up...

I have never called you a name...I have questioned your reasoning and your conclusions, and I have disagreed with you...but, I never called you a specific name...I have debated the soundness of your assertions...I have never "attacked" you...

At lot of what you say reads as: we must punish women for their behavior..you give passing remarks about men's responsibility for what goes wrong, but in superficial ways like: he should listen only if she says it the way he wants her too...whether you are conscious of it or not, what you write reads as someone who really is angry at women, thinks that none of them behave properly or do what they should, and shouldn't be allowed to make decisions that men don't agree with...for any reason...



no reason for not telling the truth.
So who's facts are more accurate the ones compiled by many or the one you give us from your memory?


Are you saying I am lying? I would, because I am fair and open minded, report anything that didn't favor me, or women in general, and I believe , early on, that I did just that...I think ten years in this business with access to not only who files first, but why, and how No Faults work , and why they are chosen is valid..and this is true statewide....not just where I am...Ohio is one of the most populated states...that's a fair sampling...those people are compiling stats...I am giving you human reasons for why people do what they do...and the bugisback has a valid point...No Fault may not be ideal , but it beats the way divorces used to be done by a long shot...

As to the hits for reading this...are you arrogant enough to think they are all about what you say..or everyone who reads it agrees with you? Or, do you discount the entertainment value of this kind of debate, or, that many people who have posted on here already, don't feel motivated to post again...but, keep reading it to see what's happening..or how "gender war" type stuff is always well read...

Before you came back on, the thread was actually making some progress as to trying to see everyone's point of view, and discussing possible fixes, and with far less acrimoniousness ...your only solution to the problem appears to be limiting other people's rights or imposing your own personal religious values on everyone , or just berating women in general till they capitulate and do it your way...cooperation is paramount to solving any joint issue ( the core of why some women initiate break ups)...your delivery method, at the least, does not encourage this...so, that any valid points you may actually have, are not heard behind the accusations...

I keep posting both because I think the topic could have some validity handled more civilly , because there just aren't as many thought provoking or interesting things to post about on here lately, and I can't think of an original topic of my own..lol..because it takes my mind off my feeling so crummy...lol..and because somewhere I keep thinking (probably erroneously, I know) that you will actually HEAR something I say and a light will go off, and some understanding might ensue...I always was a hopeless optimist...LOL..

Edit to add:


definitely not from the memory of a secretary!!!!


OMG...be careful MJ...your bias is showing...how presumptuous of you...

Not that there is anything wrong with being a secretary...but, I'm not...I have a college degree in business administration ( and a second one in merchandising marketing)..I am actually the Bookkeeper/Operations Manager..I run the firm...administratively..and handle all the finances..and I meet with every client at some point or another, see all the files, and they often tell me what is motivating them ( they (both genders) are usually happy to have someone listen to them), and I write the checks for filing...

 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 41 (view)
 
What are some signs of a potential stalker?
Posted: 5/5/2010 2:31:36 PM

Yet you're doing it to me right now...


I am not belittling you..I never once dismissed male concerns,(in fact , I agreed with your basic premise that men have concerns too) called you any names, accused you of making false accusations or listed silly reasons for being cautious...I never belittle anyone...I can disagree with some points without being belittling, rude or mean...and if you read it that way...either I communicated it improperly, or you misunderstood, because it was not my intention...

I am not raising women up...I am talking about the fears of the only gender I am personally familiar with..and truth is the concerns are different..by virtue of being male or female..there is danger for both..they are not the same dangers...or the same experiences...I agreed with almost every statement you made about the possible male dangers...which are not the same...we are not the same...most of our issues are not the same...equality doesn't mean same...

A WOMAN asked what the potential signs of a stalker are, in her case...some men, instead of answering it seriously, basically derided women for being concerned at all...and said they all misused it ( and I actually mentioned in my original post that both genders misuse the phrase..), and weren't in any danger ever, and to just forget about it...said we were overreacting and paranoid etc...


Actual data from Statcan and CDC would prove that statement wrong.


I believe those stats refer to male on male violence..how much of that is a product of a dating site?

You do realize that most women are afraid of being raped, right? ( which is the underlying fear of stalkers) Like I said..heterosexual men are not in much danger of being raped by men from a dating site are they? The topic was about specifically what should a woman look for as signs of potential danger. which in this case is quite different than what men need to be cautious of..

To discuss a topic that is referring specifically to either gender and their concerns ( which are not the same)..is not about not being equal...a specific person, who happened to be female was asking a question she needed answered that suited her gender and experiences..it doesn't dismiss mens...but, it's not why she asked..it wasn't a general question...and my only point was no matter who had asked...making fun of their concern is not what I call a nice thing, or good thing to do...my personal concerns exist..not because they are meant to disregard men, but because they are specific to me...

And in case you hadn't noticed..I have never been a part of the "Feminist Movement", my opinions weren't asked, I'm no where near radical about much, let alone what feminists think, I do not mistreat people of any gender, I have never made a false or silly accusation about something so serious, so, yes, it offends me that a blanket statement is made about women in general about this topic ( something i'm sure you would feel about a blanket statement about men no?)..I do not have to take responsibility for the bad behavior of anyone..I can only lead by example..and talk about what my concerns/experiences are...

One can be fair to any gender, and still discuss their separate issues, separately..and acknowledge what is different..no one has to win or dominate...it's just separate..I am obviously not a fan of blurring gender differences in the name of equality....which doesn't mean I think either side should be dismissed or disregarded..just not treated as if there are no differences..
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 39 (view)
 
What are some signs of a potential stalker?
Posted: 5/5/2010 9:20:30 AM
Zeke: I can only relate what I know and how I behave...my post in no way is meant to imply men aren't ever in danger ...but , the topic is " women in danger sexually or physically from men on the internet"...plus, I at no time, used my concerns about myself to belittle men's concerns..many of these posts basically say shut up and take the risks, because we have to..I do not understand how making an attempt to be respectful of any groups concerns belittles ones own..it is basically, IMO, stooping to the same level if that is what they believe..two wrongs don't make a right...the truth is...women are more at risk for physical harm from men on the internet then men are..and this is not to say men don't have concerns or shouldn't talk about them..it is just saying..dismissing ours based on the fact that men have concerns too , is not the"fair" thing either...it trivializes both the danger, and our fears...how is that any better? And I believe I did say an actual stalker is scary for any gender...and I also didn't belittle any men for their thoughts on it...I also never have told a man to put up and shut up , and most of the women I know don't do that either..I'm rather sympathetic to most people's concerns of any gender...

I personally do not believe that men and women are "equal", as in "the same", we are not...the same strengths, abilities or make up..and I never will...I am no where near as able to defend myself physically as many men, even aside from the strength issue...I never will be...angry men are very scary for me...and I have lived what happens when they are..most of the men I know handle dangerous or confrontational situations much better than I do...and I'm sure, even if they are scared, they don't burst into tears and acquiesce for fear of making it worst, or like to avoid confrontation generally...I will never be , and have no desire to be "just like a man"...and there are differences , and for good reasons..

If men feel they are misrepresented or mistreated they should learn to speak up and fix it..it is true they often don't...and that is part of their more typically "male" make up..and it isn't good for them...but, I would never ridicule them as pay back for having been ridiculed myself...

And Zeke...how often on the net are you in danger of meeting a man that might rape you? (unless you are gay, bi, ..and if so...would such a person not also take precautions, and fear for their safety?) In this instance the risks are not equal....the thread isn't about the dangers men face...that can be a whole other thread if anyone wants...to derail this one with meanness because it doesn't address a totally different topic is actually just behaving the way you ( generally, not just you) are accusing women of doing...dismissing our concerns...IMO

I would like to know where equality came to mean men dismissing any real fears or concerns of women, and lacking empathy or sympathy..because now that we are "equal" we don't deserve it...we should learn to think and behave just like men, suddenly from somewhere acquire skill sets we don't have, and treated with disrespect..because only "unequal" women deserve respect? I don't get it...

I can only control how I behave, and I have empathy and sympathy for anyone who struggles with any issue , regardless of gender...and I do not belittle men in order to raise women up....or to make a point...it's counter productive, and doesn't help endure people to your concerns...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 670 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/5/2010 8:39:55 AM

I never said that divorcing a spouse that does not love and honor you is the same as just because you want to.
However I doubt that any spouse just falls out of love with someone that treats them well.
So the question there would be, what part did she play in making him not love her anymore?
Or is it always the mans fault that he fell out of love with her?


MJ: I fell out of love with him..he didn't fall out of love with me...so, i didn't do anything that "made" ( which you can't make someone love you or not) him fall out of love with me..he believed he loved me just fine...he was short on understanding what loving actions were though..and yes, you can fall out of love with someone who doesn't mistreat you...it happens..you can even still love someone who does..human nature is not predictable that way....or always logical or rational...

I actually gave you plenty of real life examples from the law firm I work at, which specializes in domestic law, we see roughly around 1000 new clients a year, and half that many at any given time as ongoing clients, p;us i have exposure to the rest of the firms in the county, and the courts...one of the partners has actually helped write the domestic laws in Ohio..he is well respected across the state, and even out of it...the woman you keep referring to...the results she concludes are just her opinion also..I was giving you stats that I actually have seen in practice...and you dismissed them as irrelevant...

I can't believe you can't see the misogyny in statements like:


Other than showing even back then women still filed at a higher rate and that was as soon as they got the right to file..........Hummmmmm wonder what that means?


You really believe the right to file should be taken away from women because, IN YOUR OPINION, they misuse it..sounds like control to me...or the desire to put women back in their "place"...

I would think these are very key components to critical thinking;


* thinks openmindedly within alternative systems of thought,
recognizing and assessing, as need be, their assumptions, implications, and practical consequences; and
* communicates effectively with others in figuring out solutions to complex problems.


I haven't seen much of either of those...

And BTW: You said that men should only listen to their wives if their wives expressed themselves in a manner understood and recognized by men..I happen to believe, whether male or female, that left brain thinking ( more logical or rational) is a God given talent/trait...and I think there is some scientific research that it does have some basis in evolution and the different tasks of genders at the time..I have never been a good left brain thinker...have made some attempts, but, basically, it's just not how my brain works...I have always been drawn to those who can though, because I don't have it..my father was very left brained, and I adored him...but he was constantly lamenting the fact that I didn't think like him...and I wanted to please him, I really tried...just not how I operate..he didn't always "get" me either...but, at least he listened and tried to..and asked questions when he didn't get it...

And dawn: my brain would be a nightmare for you...lol..it really does have hundreds of things going on at the same time, all connected somehow,. and emotions/feelings in there affecting my decisions/thoughts...

I get that a lot of men, and some women, don't get it....but, it is just the way I process, and even if I thought I could change it, I don't think I would...I really don't see it as "evil"..just different..and I think both perspectives are needed..I really try these days to translate to men what I mean...and even in the translation I am often misunderstood or misinterpreted..so, as long as they don't dismiss me based on what they think I mean..we have to keep talking till we both are clear on what's being said...and that is good communication in my mind...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 38 (view)
 
What are some signs of a potential stalker?
Posted: 5/4/2010 11:56:19 PM
All the guys who are not stalker types, and quite decent , have a hard time understanding that there are enough men who aren't that women have to use some caution..

All the men who have never been stalked or threatened physically..have a hard time being sympathetic to it being a threat..

Most men are rarely in much physical danger...women are far more often, and the incidence of male sexual violence with women is much greater than female sexual violence with men...the stats say 1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted or abused sometime in their life...

I think some men trivialize the concern because they can't relate to it, they know in their heads they aren't a threat, and see it as overreaction..because they know who they are...they rarely feel physically threatened by women...and are almost always much stronger physically ...I don't possess a lot of physical strength...add to this a man who is 6 to 10 inches taller than me, 50 to 100 lbs heavier, and stronger than me..and yeah, it can be scary...

The thing with online is you really don't know someone till you meet them , and it is hard to detect signs that are more obvious in face to face meetings...far easier to get a creepy vibe in most cases when you meet someone than from the written word...

I am not paranoid...I use reasonable caution...but, I have to tell you..one or two bad experiences and it gets harder not to worry it will happen again...

I have reasonably good instincts, and am cognizant of behavior that seems a bit off...yet, still, I misjudged twice...good thing I set some boundaries ahead of time...one man verbally assaulted ( and embarrassed me) in a crowded restaurant...the other tried to physically assault me in broad daylight in a public parking lot...nothing either of these guys said or did ahead of time indicated they would behave this way..both times were very scary..

So , yeah I use some caution...men need to not take it personally, and allow women to take some precautions to feel they are in a comfort zone, and not ridicule them for being concerned about safety...it isn't a reflection on them personally, and once a woman gets to know them/meet them..she will have her answer...trust is earned, not given freely to anyone who says they are trustworthy...the net ( and dating sites) are full of advice to woman on how to take precautions about their safety...

Sure, if you are paranoid to the point you never meet anyone because of your fears..that's not good...but, using boundaries to stay in a comfort zone till you have a reasonable expectation of not feeling threatened is not aberrant behavior...

Stalking can feel pretty threatening to any gender...

And btw...the term has been misused to express any unwanted attention by both genders...but, the true definition of it is scary..and possibly life threatening...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 661 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 4:55:03 PM

See I have never tried to affix blame on one gender,only the fact one does this more than the other.


Sigh,,,there is no "proof" that one does it more than the other...the only thing the stats say is that women file more often..IT DOESN'T GIVE THE REASONS WHY for either gender.,..it doesn't tell you why they are filing first either..this is illogical reasoning...even if 80 of out of 100 divorce filings are women, and 20 were men...where is it indicated the reasons why any of them filed...all 100 could have filed for infidelity..how do we know what the reasons are? Half could have filed first because the other wouldn't for some reason..there is no direct correlation between the stats and reasons...there just isn't ....more women filing does not extrapolate to more more women filing for "frivolous" reasons...

So, women have been trying to tell you some of the reasons they did..also several have explained that they didn't file first because they wanted the divorce...or, like me...I never filed at all...those stats do not support your theory...


Seeing as they took the vows of their own free will shouldn't they be held accountable for them?


I haven't seen a single person of either gender admit to breaking any vows...the vows are pretty basic and only allow for some narrow reasons for divorcing....I didn't break any vows....


I am trying to explain are dismissed because you see it as a attack on your gender?


I see it as an un substantiated attack, and an unnecessary one, and a HUGE generalization that doesn't hold true for many on this thread...aside from all that...I believe you get more flies with honey than vinegar...the way to understand someone is not to attack them..you can just as easily pose this question without attacking or being insulting...how do you expect someone to answer to an attack? With cooperation?


What I am saying is a good amount of this NOT ALL is from men trying to understand a problem when women talk in "code" and not understanding the code.


I don't talk in code...I talk differently than you do, and I process differently...it makes perfect sense to me in my brain....and if you don't understand, then you need to keep asking me...nicely..not in an accusatory or dismissive way ..what I mean, or that you don't understand...because I am not trying to be obtuse...it is just the way I process things...it is my natural way of relating..and I will not know if you are confused if you do not tell me that...I will read it as dismissive..because IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE TO ME...the thing about communication is that both sides have to try...you appear to always be saying that women need to fix it all, because they have a problem and men do not...

It would also help if your posts weren't always dripping with condescension...you talk down to most of us..and that is always hard to ignore...


I think that the denial of the majority of the women here that the fact it is easier for women to "start over" and the current laws help in this, also the woman can plan this out way before the man knows of her thoughts.


I can't comment on what I haven't personally experienced...it wasn't easier for me..he got almost everything of value...I came close to being homeless...then again...he married a woman who didn't try to use money to punish him with...and isn't vengeful by nature...also, most of the men I date still make at least twice as much money as I do...so, all other things being equal..it is easier for them to recover, and faster...they may have to pay out more in the beginning...but they have both the opportunity and ability to recoup much faster...this would hold true especially for SAHM's....

I don't know MJ..can you acknowledge that many women think/process differently than you do..and it isn't "wrong" it is different..and it is possible to learn to communicate with each other without any blame or some drastic change in our respective ways at looking at things...

anathasia: don't know what happened to your post...but, thanks both for the well wishes and the video..a humorous way to acknowledge we do think differently...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 658 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 1:12:41 PM

It was the first time I had really sat down and considered who had initiated all of my breakups. It was the first time I had considered was there a gender bias in breaking up and, if so, why?
I was startled to realize I have initiated 100% of them.
^^ Exception is the partner who cheated on me.


I agree with this,,,in fact, it may have been the same thread..lol...I have thought about it a lot since...I also never heard the phrase "bad picker" till the forums either, though I probably did wonder at why I gravitated to men who basically drove me nuts in a not good way...lol..

( Idle thought: I just spent a long time posting an answer, and somehow, lost the whole thing...sigh...should I take that as a "sign" I probably shouldn't post it?..lol..also, I spent 7 hrs in the ER last night, and am quite ill, and probably should be resting instead of posting,,,so, any mistakes or nonsensical stuff I blame on the meds..lol)

I tend to be easily hurt, and overly sensitive, and no amount of counseling ( both marital and individual) has been able to fix this much, though I have improved...my ex husband was a rational, stoic, logical, practical, non emotional type of guy...I am sure that I drove him nuts with this...he saw it as weakness, he didn't get it, and most of the time he didn't even understand what I was upset about..or, more often...why. I also had expectations of him, that in hindsight, were not realistic...especially knowing him as I did....we were friends for 7 years before we ever dated...We were also at opposite ends of the spectrum politically at the time ( he claimed he didn't know why he voted, because I just canceled him out..lol); financially, and martial expectations of wife and husband...I'm sure all those things made the marriage more difficult for him...( though in all fairness...we both knew these things about the other before....)


Further, although it wasn't a sense of pride, I had a sense of relief about it.


I had a sense of....proud of myself...and I think it important to note why....I felt I had finally taken a stand and stood up for myself, I had stopped being a doormat. and stopped trying to fix myself to suit his vision of me...it is also important to note the political/social climate for women at that time...it was encouraged to take these stands...it was said to be empowering...it was seen as a positive thing...and any women who didn't do it...were less than, weak and not "equal"...I truly believed I was being a "better" woman...

In the end, I actually had both our best interests in mind...while he wasn't unhappy enough to leave me ( and I believe the reason being what he was unhappy about was low on his hierarchy of needs...what I was unhappy about was my number one need..), he wasn't happy...there were several things ( like my inability to have children) that I couldn't have changed if I wanted to,,,and they were things that were important to him...and we did do the counseling...two years of it...the counselor even said we were never going to be able to resolve our primary problems...we were just mismatched ( the things we had in common that we both enjoyed and are what made us good friends...were not enough to sustain the relationship emotionally...)

So, while I believe that possibly if I could have fixed everything about me he didn't like..we might have made it...that wasn't realistic either...he needed to meet me half way in my mind...

As to the bad picker thing..while I get the point...I also can't help but comment that most of us do not have a list of the "best" available men, and get to choose from it ( in fact, most of us don't have the qualities needed to even attract them)..we are limited to who we meet, and who finds us attractive...if we dismiss most men waiting for the (dreaded by men..lol) Mr Perfect...what are our options? Being single forever? Never meeting him anyway? While I am not one to be in a relationship for the sake of the relationship..I do believe most people, and certainly myself..are better in one than not..while I may have made bad choices as far as compatibility in the past...I do not necessarily see that as a negative overall...I did learn from it, and I am much more attuned these days to recognizing certain personality traits or behaviors I know I don't get along with well...no matter how many other really "cool" attributes he has..lol...

I have always felt like I failed...even though I initiated...failed at relationships in general/failed as a GF/wife/failed as a woman..either because I couldn't change things about me that would have made it easier, or because I couldn't tolerate some behaviors that would have made it easier...or because I just really suck at life...lol...

It is a complicated thing, and I am trying really hard not to absolve myself of any responsibility..but, someone with my outlook has a problem thinking they are "bad" if they never mistreat or hurt anyone , and were doing the best they could at the time...motive has always meant a lot to me...several men keep asking why? I have tried to give several answers...and I think it still boils down most of the time to: it is most often our primary need that is being ignored or ridiculed or dismissed...it happens all the time on the forums too..generally ( as in , not all men...lol) many men don't even admit they don't get women, let alone try to understand them..they'd much rather just criticize us for not being like them..that is why when any male poster actually gives us a fair shot to explain and listen it impresses us..though often he is then accused by the other men of being a traitor...lol..

MJ: I don't think any of us women are disagreeing with your thoughts on communication...but, what I think is happening is that you are responding based on your previous relationships..and you seem convinced that all women are poor communicators , and throw away relationships frivolously ..and don't work on it, and some extrapolation that I don't get..that because women file more often..they are filing what you call "frivolous " divorces...you can't decide for another person what is a good reason or not...though several of us have said we did try and had good reasons...repeatedly and often..some did counseling even..some suggested it, but, the ex refused to go..while I'm sure some women and men are poor communicators, based on the posts ( and my belief that generally more thoughtful, communicating type people are posters in the first place), I don't think that is always the case...

My personal experience has been, since my first boyfriend when I was 14...that many men tend to not want to talk about problems, dismiss feelings they don't understand, and hate messing with the "status quo"..the exact opposite of many women...I maintain that these differences is what is really causing the communication problem..and only by acknowledging and at minimum trying to see the other side will it improve..my hope would be, especially with the turn in tone on this thread...that at least some of us will make an effort to do so...

I don't see many men attempting to explain their viewpoint real well without being critical or dismissive..it is possible to explain how you feel and why without saying it's all the other side's fault isn't it?
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 632 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/3/2010 12:55:57 PM
MJ: I think overwhelmingly..most women said, whether specifically or detailed or not...that the reason was that whey weren't being heard...or taken seriously..and after numerous attempts to get cooperation from their SO's,,,they gave up...

Something Alpha said is important: you are operating under the presumption that all the women who responded, or all the women that exist and initiated, didn't try to fix things, though many said they did..including myself..and you on numerous occasions said that our reasons weren't GOOD enough..thereby proving, to some extent, our issue...many men either don't listen, or dismiss you when you try and tell them...

Itsmargo makes some good points about personal satisfaction is not gained by the behavior of others...but, there is a world of difference with being unhappy with yourself or your life, and being unhappy with the behavior of your SO..who, theoretically could be your biggest ally to make the changes /improvements you need...though, it takes an enlightened person...many men on the threads complain about women who grow or change in a relationship...especially if it changes their lives in any way,,,I'm sure some women ( and in another relationship I might have, I'd have to think about it), leave because they aren't happy with who they are, and they reflect it outward...my issue ( and many women I know) was that he wasn't a positive force in my life, but a negative one...which wasn't good for the marriage or me personally..and for me, the emotional needs not being met would be the biggest motivator for me to leave....

And there we have it boiled down..for many women..emotional needs not being met are a very good reason to initiate a break up....
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 603 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 10:02:30 AM
Nicecowboy7: I think what you are saying is semantics...maybe I'm wrong ,..but happy and satisfied are not synonymous..I might be satisfied with the way a dish I cooked turned out, or dissatisfied with someone who leaves their dirty socks and underwear on the floor..but, those things don't make me happy or unhappy in the grand scheme of things..and I wouldn't divorce someone over the latter...I think this may also be a result of those who think literally, and those who don't..which, while not gender specific, in my experience, I don't think literally, most of the men I know do...does it matter how it's said if the bottom line is: I'm unhappy, can we talk about it and see if we can make it better?

I have been happy generally, and happy about specific events in my life, but, honestly, by the end of my marriage, there was more unhappy than happy..and the stupid thing is, in my case, if he had been willing to compromise even a little, or take my feelings seriously...we might have stayed married...

Are you really saying that if a woman says to you " I'm unhappy", you, and most men by your implication, assume it means: you now have to fix my unhappiness...is this being obtuse, or a result of most men's desire to fix problems, or just an inability to admit you could make a difference by looking at what she is saying and listening? Or taking responsibility for your part in a relationship...whether to keep it going, or to end it...

Men are always making the comments about not changing them, and I wonder if some don't extrapolate that to: I will behave how ever I want, and you have to put up with it , even if it hurts you?

I also agree that any gender that disappears as a way to break up with someone..is being cowardly..and mean too, in my opinion...I have always taken any personal discomfort break ups, or rejections, cause as part of the deal, and I respect people in general enough, to treat them with consideration...and not dismiss them or their feelings because it might be inconvenient or uncomfortable for me..

I have met some really cool guys from POF...even from the forums..lol..but, generally, the men who are the meanest and nastiest in these kinds of threads do seem to be the minority...it's just hard to not respond, at least for me, on this kind of stuff...lol...even if it falls on deaf or uncaring ears...

I have also adjusted some of my dating behavior when men make sense about something that bothers them on here, I have rarely though, seen many men who say women may have a point about something and try it our way...it just constantly seems to still be a fight over who is "right", not about just different..

Mr Evil: Explain to me why men being bitter and jaded, or ranting is any better than women who are? You can't take to task a group of people for bad behavior while using the the same behavior to do it..without appearing ironic at best, and tunnel visioned, or a double standard, at worst....

I am of two minds on the marriage thing..for the young, I hope it survives, and I hope as a society we learn how to stay in them...for those who have been there , done that...I think religious convictions, more serious commitment minded, and those who still be believe in love everlasting will keep them alive...I don't know that I would rule them out yet...and I don't know that I am against them in principle..just gotta find the right guy for that, as men should do the same...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 580 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/1/2010 5:59:11 PM
I'm sick as a dog and should be in bed, lol..but, I thought I'd throw one more thing out there about this unhappy/happy...

One can be totally happy with oneself, and still not be happy with some part of their life...like their marriage. I didn't leave my ex because I was unhappy with myself...I left my ex because he did things that hurt me, or sabotaged me in a regular basis...this made me unhappy with the marriage...it had nothing to do with how happy I was with myself...I wasn't expecting him to "fix" me..I was expecting him to be on my side, and support me, and be a partner not a dictator...

I can't believe you would think that someone has to put up with abusive or un-supporting behavior...because they are responsible for their own happiness? This is like saying if someone beats the crap out of you...you should ignore it and create your own happiness?

I think the phrase" one has to be happy with themselves" is misused in this context...people who leave marriages in search of themselves this might apply to..but, people who leave marriages because their partners are treating them badly, or undermining their self worth..they are not in control of that...this flies in the face of men who are always saying why did women put up with abuse for all those years?

It is perfectly reasonable, in my opinion, to leave someone who mistreats you , or doesn't contribute to a marriage ( or relationship ) in a positive way...good self esteem does not mean putting up with abuse...in fact, it means just the opposite...

I repeat..I didn't leave my marriage because it failed to live up to some unrealistic ideal...I left because I was miserable IN THE MARRIAGE , and saw no light at the end of the tunnel, after repeated efforts to try and make it better...whatever my personal issues were...that didn't change the fact that I was being dismissed, mistreated, and bullied...which made me unhappy..not with myself, but with my marriage and my exes behavior...( if I was unhappy with myself in regards the marriage..it would be my failure to take a stand and end it sooner than I did....)

Sexiest User: Brilliant...teehee

( And yes, I do own a cat...lol)

EDITED to add:

Am I particularly dense ..wait a minute I just figured it out..YMMV..your own mileage may vary..sheesh
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 549 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/30/2010 11:57:29 PM
Back on topic for a minute: BTW, MJ...things must work a little different in Europe, because where I come from, so, I'll assume most states are this way...there is no such thing as a contested "no fault"...if the parties can't agree...it's converted to a regular divorce...which, incidentally doesn't HAVE to name a "fault"...even in regular divorces most just use "irreconcilable differences"...I have yet to see a divorce refused because one party was "guiltier" than the other...the only thing bad behavior is used for anymore is to argue who is the better parent, and money issues...not to keep the divorce from happening...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 548 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/30/2010 11:33:25 PM

While many want to believe men are the evil doers of the world there are just as many girls, mothers, aunts, grandmas that will and have sold female girls in their care for a whole host of nefarious reasons. Men do not have the market cornered nor will they ever.


Do you have any stats (haha) or research that proves "there are just as many"? Because while I will believe there are some, and maybe more than there used to be,,,just as many doesn't seem to fit with what I know about biology and the differences in genders basically..re: sex , violence and drives....

And you are talking all over the world right? I'm thinking here in the US there aren't a slew of women selling girls or other women into sexual slavery...maybe some..but, if there are tons...they must be really good at not getting caught...

While some women like being prostitutes ( or more likely call girls actually) they are a minority of the women who are in it..and obviously those who choose it, are not the ones I would worry about...

Did someone actually say that men are the cause of all the evil in the world...I think some said that some men behave evilly..and some women do..albeit most often in different ways...evil isn't gender specific..and I'm pretty sure the original post that started this was tongue in cheek,,,something evidently men are allowed to do, but not women...

And why is it ok for men to make derogatory remarks about a whole gender, but not women? Not that I think either should happen in an ideal world...nor, is stooping to someones else's level indicative of reasoned discourse...but, no one seems to say much to men who rant about women as a whole, except a few other women...but, everyone seems to jump on women who rant about men as a whole....again,not that I think either is good....just wondering...( and in these more gender war type threads...it is rare to see any man stick up for women...either they agree whole heartedly with what the ranting men are saying, or they remain silent...I find that interesting intellectually....)

EDIT to add:

Sorry, I lost my head there for a minute...lol...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 539 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/30/2010 10:26:31 PM
I am so close to doing something I never do...lol..ignorance is one of the few things I don't tolerate as well as I should...

MJ..for the 100th time....the stats only tell you that more women FILE first than men...which tells you absolutely nothing ( and they don't come from law firms...they come from the courts...) about why they file first...I've been in this business for over ten years...I've seen the changes..and I 've seen the behaviors of both genders, and trust me when I say there is no gender specific monopoly on bad behavior, or frivolous reasons for divorcing..emotionally healthy, well balanced adults go the no fault way, with little arguing, back stabbing , one upmanship..or anything bitter and mean...and more and more are choosing to break up the civil way...which, incidentally, is much better for the children, who often suffer the most from the bad behavior of their parents...more PEOPLE behave like grown ups now than used to..

If you want to believe that most women are really evil ( while also denying men are at all), be my guest,,,I not only see proof you are wrong every day..I know more PEOPLE are good than bad, and truly deliberately evil people are quite rare...most stuff is the result of being human...flawed and imperfect...

Mr Evil: maybe I'm wrong, but without going back and reading the whole thread...what I remember is that most women tried to explain why they initiated, and were basically told to shut up and listen to the people (men) who really knew the answers...and that's when it started getting ugly...

I don't remember any guy , aside from your first post, actually listening or considering what was said..or offering to communicate...so, I don't think it's fair to say that we didn't encourage communication, I know I sure did...and I, for the most part got slammed and insulted...in fact, most of the time on the forums, it's been my experience that anything I say that goes against what men think or feel or believe is dismissed out of hand as being wrong, I'm insulted for just being female, or, for thinking the way I do...

I don't call that communication...

I guess I should know when to quit...you can't fight hate and anger with reason evidently...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 524 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/30/2010 4:55:44 PM

Shockingly they back the things I have said, surely you can operate a Google search!!!


Quit the condescending tone... I have never talked down to you...
I could, just like you, find information on the net that backs up how I feel too...but, since I really don't care what experts opinions are about my personal beliefs or code of behavior, and I also think I'm reasonably intelligent enough to state my own opinions...why would I ?



The greater number of these type of filings are women!!!


Who says...in my firm...I see far more men wanting no faults then women..first, because it is way cheaper, second, because you have to both agree on the terms, and there is no trial where you can get blindsided by something you really don't want...and men only agree to any financial arrangement they are comfortable with, and don't have to let a judge make the decision...beyond their control...it's always costs them less in the end than it would otherwise, both in atty fees and what they provide for the ex financially...reasonable people go this route..non bitter or angry people...Remember it was my ex who suggested the no fault...


I never said that either but I did say the one breaking the contract should not be able to walk away with half!!!


Since in a no fault all parties agree, and often it isn't 50/50 by agreement ( mine wasn't)..unless it is terribly lopsided or one sided.,..judges approve these agreements...men are far likely to lose more in a traditional divorce...


Show me where I said I was perfect!!! Now you are just lying!!!


You never said " I am perfect"..you have, however, absolved yourself of any real culpability for the demise of your marriages..and not once have you sited any particular behavior of yours that your ex (es) may have not been happy with, or taken any responsibility for your choices...

Insults are bad form, and only people who can't respond intelligently to something use an emotional attack...and an opinion can't be a lie...it's just an opinion or interpretation of what is said...I'm not a liar...


I never did one thing to break my vows!!!


Well, yeah...neither did I...or most of the women who have posted here...so, what's your point?


I have posted stats on how the no fault has damaged this nation.


REPEAT: Almost unilaterally....men do better financially with no faults...you are promoting the wrong way if your concern is money...no faults may make it easier to divorce than used to be...but, thank God for that...because, if I would have had to stay in a miserable marriage because I couldn't prove he didn't " love.honor and cherish"...

If we want to cut down on divorce...practical things like: pre marriage counseling, instilling in our children the seriousness of marriage, not treating relationships like disposable commodities , or quitting the minute it gets hard..and maybe most importantly...classes or examples on good communication between genders would be far more helpful....you aren't going to stop some people from divorcing...nor are you going to be able to dictate to women any more what they are allowed to do , and what they aren't...

BTW, as an aside...I did a great deal of praying and soul searching before I asked for the divorce...and the message I kept getting was that it was best for both of us...turned out I was right that time....
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 522 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/30/2010 3:45:44 PM

Actually I do understand the major majority of women here have refuted the stats that I found,yet have not posted one that would come close to supporting their statements.


I never refuted the stats...and I don't remember any woman who did...what I did refute was your assertion that this provided anything to do with motive for initiating...the stats just say more women FILE first...it doesn't say why they filed, or how many filed for what you call "valid reasons" ( and I still maintain you can't decide for other people what are "valid" reasons), or any reason at all...and your plain obtuseness ( is that word?..lol..if it isn't , it should be..lol) about insisting this overflow proves that women file for what you deem "frivolous " or "invalid" reasons...the stats only say one thing...more women file first...that's all they say,,,motive or reasoning is absent...your correlations are irrational..and this is coming from someone who sometimes fails on the rational thing when it comes to relationships....

What stats am I supposed to find that address motive or reason? There are no "stats"...stats are numbers..numbers don't address reasoning or emotion...the only "evidence" I have is what I know personally to be true in my case, and other women I know...


The thing is I never said that all the divorces that women filed for were there fault. Yet I have been accused of that by many.


You have implicitly implied on numerous occasions, and sometimes flat out said that the numbers were all womens fault...and, while literally..women are a cause of the numbers, because they created them...the reasons they were created are not representative by these numbers..only the FACT that they filed is represented...you have made huge leaps of logic and supposition based on what you THINK...not what the stats actually say... they only say....that women file more often..or at least, in the groups that were tabulated...


What I did say and still do and have found many more experts that agree as well is women are much more likely to file just because they are unhappy.


For the sake of argument...let's say this is true ( ad actually, if you read a lot of the responses by women...they will say they were unhappy..for whatever reason)..so what? Where does anyone have the right to dictate to other people whether they are allowed happiness or not...or how it's defined...why is anyone not allowed to get out of situation that is miserable and makes one unhappy?Are you saying...really, are you....that women should stay in unhappy marriages because it is inconvenient or undesirable by men? Did you grow up in the fifties? Women have choice now...they don't have to stay in situations where they are unhappy, abused, emotionally ignored...any reason...freedom is a wonderful thing...(which incidentally includes the freedom to be wrong or mistaken)...


Though I know that everybody has different experiences the claims of a good many of the ladies that every divorce that they knew of was the fault of the man is just poppycock!!!


Maybe this was said...I don't remember to be honest...but, I think there is a difference to "fault" and behavior someone can't tolerate..it isn't my exes "fault" that I wanted a divorce...but, his behavior contributed to my decision..and I think what has been said is that our own and many of the ones we know...the inability of the husband in those cases to listen, and take what we say/think/feel seriously was a huge factor...this thread alone shows many men still aren't willing to LISTEN to us...whether they agree or not...they can't just listen and consider our side...they have to assert or prove that we are wrong for feeling the way we do....the less conciliatory part of me is sometimes dying to say " who died and made you king"?...lol...You don't have to agree....but, the ability to listen with respect and maybe just admit we are different , not right or wrong...would be wonderful....It's maybe an extension of the male desire to fix what is wrong, instead of just being sympathetic to the feeling...Listening without judgment as to whether we are allowed to feel that way or not?

One difference between you and I MJ...I never at any time said I was perfect, or everything was my exes fault...and I obviously picked the wrong man for me...there's an error right there...and I now avoid men who are overly critical, controlling, or dismissive of my feelings...I learned....

You have not once said that you have any responsibility for your marriages failing...and , just for the sake of argument...let's say what you say is true..that all women are blaming all men for their divorces...since you obviously blame your exes, and consider that all women must be the same...are you not advocating behavior you yourself are incapable of? Pot and Kettle again,,,in my mind..

And I don't know if you were directing it at me or not...but, I have never been disrespectful , shrewish or spewing venom ( nice catch phrase some men use because they know it really annoys women to be compared to snakes ...) to anyone on here or in real life...

Some men on this thread have deliberately baited women..and if I remember correctly...no one got real upset till men threw the first volley....and then they are going to complain about the reactions they got? If men can be vitriolic, nasty and name calling...since men are always throwing the "equality" word around...they shouldn't be surprised when some women might respond in kind....
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 471 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/29/2010 7:02:22 PM
well, MJ...this is the point you are missing...

Marriages aren't business deals..they are loving relationships...you can not quantify what either partner does that doesn't bring in money...

I do not agree an ex should keep the other half in a life they have become accustomed to ( not even sure I think alimony is necessary except in extreme cases of long term marriage where the wife didn't work by agreement of both parties)..I do think that what you are entitled to in the things that get split isn't just about who made more money..there are many things that help facilitate a smooth marriage that aren't based on money...

I ended up filing bankruptcy after my divorce, so , he didn't give me anything that kept me in a particular lifestyle ( and I didn't ask for alimony, which in hindsight, maybe I should have. because it would have helped me briefly at least, get back on my feet...)..I only got what I thought was fair...and even refused things I was entitled to and seen as fair legally..and I gave him his premarital profit from a fixer up house he had bought right off the top...But, I didn't work any less, or contribute any less than him percentage wise, and besides my money....there was a lot of unpaid labor that kept our house nice, and him happy...I wasn't able to make the money he did..I wasn't refusing to...so, I did other things to make up for that...and they count...

Here's the thing...a decent human being who professed to love someone, and especially if they were never mistreated by this person....why would they try to say after the fact that the marriage wasn't 50/50...because one person made more money than the other..that's my point...money isn't all there is, or all that counts...could I reasonably penalize someone for not being loving or doing their share of the chores? I contributed to our lifestyle..we couldn't have lived the way we did without my income...nor, as nice as we did in other ways...I didn't get anything that wasn't fair..based on what I contributed for ten years...my working allowed him to have all his fancy toys too...which he kept...if I hadn't gotten what I did...it wouldn't have been a matter of me driving a BMW ( this cracks me up...I left the marriage with a used dodge...roflmao)..I would have been on the street...I barely made it as it was...I moved in with my grandmother...his lifestyle didn't change much...he could afford things to start over, I could not...everything I had when we got married was consumed in the marriage...

This is another thing that would scare me about getting married again...I do not want to have to start over a third time ( second time was after the cancer)...I believe agreements about premarital or pre cohabiting arrangements are necessary..because as much as I ideally wish it lasted forever...I know it may not...if I turn over everything I own now..including my house...and we break up...I'm going to have a hard time starting over again...especially at my age...and that worries me...not whether he got any of my money or not....so, pre nups etc are smart...

I don't know how you would figure what % of anything anyone contributed unless you kept copious records on every single transaction..we pooled out money...paid all the bills out of it, and the leftover was used for other living expenses or luxuries..we didn't keep track of who paid for what , or anything...

My brain does not compute putting value on a person, or what they do for you , with money...I am a very fair person, and I'm sure I'm not the only one...

I hate to burst your bubble ( and yes, the 7 out of ten seems high..but...), where I live lots of men get custody...but, actually, there is rare sole custody anymore, only if the other parent is dangerous, or seriously incapable...most couples go with shared parenting...many an actual 50/50 in time with their children...CS is based on a mathematical formula going by percentage of income...and sometimes it washes, based on time with the other parent...sometimes it doesn't..and the higher income person pays a bit more...people also make agreements to change the formula, and as long as both agree and is fair..the judge allows it..I have also seen people trade child support for other assets..one party will give it up in lieu of something else...

I don't know...I believe in fair..but, I also believe that people's value isn't monetary, and I am also a pretty generous person myself...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 47 (view)
 
Portion Distortion
Posted: 4/29/2010 2:40:16 PM

Nothing tastes as good as thin(ner) feels]


That's a good mantra TK...but, I have trouble believing it myself too..lol..

In my case, I've lost 60 and stalled ...for months...I've maintained..but, I can't get past this certain point..

I eat much better, and far less, and cut out pop, and eating at night...it appears that my body is rebelling big time...lol..I already limit myself to less than 1500 calories a day most days..which is not much...and while I like salad...I can't live on it, ( and it actually annoys some men when you eat like that)and all these dates do tend to make you want to eat something more substantial or tastier...but, I'm thinking that between my age and metabolism and lifestyle...I'd have to cut down to like 800 a day, and exercise for three hours to make any more progress...it is frustrating...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 464 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/29/2010 1:45:22 PM
There's something to be said for men who obviously de value any contributions women make that aren't measurable in dollar amounts...there is something to be said for how important money is to many men ( and this importance is why it can be used against you)..so, important, in fact, it trumps love, your children and anything else that has real value..some women try to use it to hurt men, because it works...

I have repeatedly said that the cases where men are treated unfairly on a regular basis are getting less and less where I live, I have to assume that's true of most other parts of the country...I lost my job shortly after my divorce, and had to file bankruptcy eventually...my ex didn't suffer much ...he did have to get an equity line to pay me my share of the equity...but, I had already given him his 7K off the top...and our house was worth three times what we owed..and he made twice as much as I did...this doesn't mean I contributed any less...I shared all my money..plus, did a myriad of other things that contriubted to having a nice home, and marriage...my degree and skills just didn't pay the same as his..I didn't work any less..in fact more..I worked 6 days to his five..plus did almost everything else to keep the house and our finances maintained...

You can't put a dollar value on a person's worth..of any gender..and those who try...I will never understand...

The constant threats here about men not marrying just don't scare me..don't even know that I would get married again..and it is in large part due to the number of angry, mean and unfeeling men there seem to be in my age group...

I don't want anything from them but their love and consideration..and that seems to be the furthest thing from their mind....

It is extraordinarliy difficult to to try and understand someone who is constantly "yelling", criticizing and and telling you how evil you are..and how angelic they are..

x-file & mr evil: I so hope that this is part of some internet persona, because I have actually always enjoyed your posts until you have gotten what I think is unnessecarily personal and mean...you can disagree without being hateful....
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 444 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/28/2010 7:23:47 PM
A simple answer would be: whoever initiates isn't happy...

And since everyone has a different definition of what makes them "happy"..and there appears to be some significant gender differences...

Why I know if I ever considered getting married again...we would talk about what "happy" means among other expectations..

I don't believe all men are alike, or all men are bad...but, I can honestly say that I personally haven't been romantically involved with one who "got" me emotionally at all...most saw it as a BIG negative, and many also saw it as weakness...that's frustrating...especially because I know I'm not weak (except physically..I have no physical strength to speak of...) by any definition..I guess what would be nice is to have some men see it as a positive in some sense...

I guess that would be the ONE thing I would really like to have....and if I found it...my reservations about marriage would probably go up in smoke...

BTW...I've talked to the domestic lawyers at my firm about this discussion...they have their own opinions based on their experiences with clients...and they say that regardless of who initiated..the angrier one is the one who controls the process...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 46 (view)
 
What are you looking for?
Posted: 4/28/2010 6:43:28 PM
I always saw it as a way to match goals, or see if they fit yours...I never used to ask at all...but, I do now, when their profile says the exact opposite of mine, and some even have restrictions that disqualify me...but, they contact me?

But, like Igor said...I do agree other than saying I'm looking for something with the potential for long term..I know more what I don't want than I do?..lol..I keep trying to clarify it in my mind..but, I think I'm stuck with: I'll know it when I see it?...lol..
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 50 (view)
 
Where is the line between being thin skinned to insulting behavior?
Posted: 4/28/2010 10:44:25 AM
I agree with browneyesboo ...it's more when it happened, than that it did to me..

I don't expect a guy to "die" and not notice other attractive women when we are involved..I notice other men...but, in certain circumstances, and when it is over the top like that? Yeah, it would bother me..I'm not even a particularly jealous person..just the inappropriateness of it all, and the acting like a teenager part...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 434 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 8:00:55 PM

Maybe you misunderstood. I was not talking about sitting down to talk about trying to fix it but to end the relationship with both partners knowing it was happening.


MJ..your reasoning gives me a headache...and I'm not known as the most logical or rational poster on here...lol...

In my case ( as I can speak for no others)...he felt blindsided because he didn't take anything I said up until I asked him for the divorce seriously ( in fact, when I first asked, he thought I was joking...) ..the relationship ended when I asked for the divorce...there was no way to give any more warning than I already had...I was trying to fix it up until then..and I never threatened , because that wouldn't have been right...if he had been listening, or taken my concerns seriously, he should have known things were bad..in fact, since we were in marriage counseling ( which was not going well)..how much more warning did he need?

Look...there is no magic number that says because women file more they are more at fault...or , that more men are at fault either..each situation is different...and except in extreme cases, both people bear some responsibility for things going south...who decides to make the final break is not indicated by who files..many have pointed this out to you, and you just don't seem to get it...the person who files first can for many reasons..often they aren't even the one who wanted the divorce...or, they both want it and the one that files is the one with the atty..of funds to do so...your numbers don't indicate who's "at fault"..only who filed the papers first...there is no correlation..

I haven't talked this much about my divorce in over 15 years..lol..and I actually made my peace both with him and myself a very long time ago...I was only trying to give one female's point of view about why she initiated...( and actually didn't file first, oddly enough...lol)..and my ex would agree with me, that it was the best thing for both of us...so, who's "fault" it was is moot...

While I share your sadness at the apparent demise of marriage...I don't think either gender it entirely to blame..one way or the other...we both (genders) have our flaws, and our different ways of communicating and thought processing..I have long advocated trying to understand each other and working with that..and certainly I have since learned to communicate earlier, better and more directly whenever I can, and to discuss expectations early on..I have learned from this failure...

I would much prefer for everyone to get along...though I know it may be unrealistic...and I certainly am willing to listen to the male side of things, and even adjust to it if I can...it just appears on the forums like the same courtesy isn't returned...

And by the way..wasn't perfect...and made some mistakes...but , I didn't break any vows....
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 413 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 6:41:52 AM
DragNFly & Mr Evil: Thank you..sorry..you are right..it is close to my heart and I did feel before I thought ..keep trying to work on that...I fail miserably..lol...I'd hate for anyone to think that I wasn't sad and in pain over the whole thing...or, that I didn't feel like I failed both my ex and myself...


So I went back and counted the times she referred to herself, her ex and them as a couple.
I was really blown away by what I found.
Number of times she referred to herself.......44
Number of times she referred to him.............8
Number of times she referred to them..........14

Are you seeing the same thing? Do you think the no fault may be being used by the self absorbed more than anyone?
I mean come on!!!!!!!!GET REAL!!!!!!!!!


Boy MJ..you sure are hard headed..lol..

The question was why do WOMEN..it would be real hard to talk about why I did anything without talking about myself now , wouldn't it? The only references to my ex would be about what his part was..not his thoughts/feelings..because frankly, I didn't know them all...what else were any of us supposed to say about the ex? It was about why WE (women) wanted a divorce...And self absorbed , like any trait is not gender specific..I could claim my ex was self absorbed..since all he cared about at the time was how things affected him?

You totally don't get the divorce process..at least in OHIO ( where I live), and I don't think it's that different anywhere else in the US...Dissolutions ( or no-faults) are used to both save costs, time and cut down on petty arguing in court...the original divorce complaint for a "regular " divorce does not assign specific blame...it uses irreconcilable differences..fault does not come into play unless it goes to trial...the domestic attorney's here do everything in their power to get couples to agree to terms, and settlement way before a trial is needed...only roughly 10% of all regular divorce cases go to trial..most settle..and no fault is assigned...

Personally, especially given that most judges are still men..and going by this thread..don't think I would want a judge to determine whether my reasons are"valid" anyway...and the trials are almost always about money or child issues of some kind of another..not fault..it would be foolish to force anyone, of any gender to stay married when they don't want to..whatever their reasons are...seems a bit of repression of freedom doesn't it? Without doing any specific study..I'd bet the original divorce laws were written by men, to favor men...and keep women in marriages they didn't want to be in, I'm not in favor of going back to men totally rule the world, myself...and incidentally, many men choose no fault...primarily because of the money savings, which is substantial...I don't see the wisdom of forcing people of any gender to stay married to someone they don't want to be married too..you can't police those kinds of things...it's a personal decision, IMO...

The "rules" you gave earlier about how to conduct a no fault...do seem fine..assuming that any couple that agrees and just wants it over can proceed anyway...I'm assuming holding up the paperwork for years would encourage the party who wants out to agree and get it over with ....

By the way..I didn't file first either..actually, I didn't even have an attorney..my ex suggested the no fault...(primarily because of cost..I agreed..the cost was a factor,...but, the not dragging it out forever, and getting into petty fights about everything was also a motivation)..we hammered out an agreement we could both live with, split the personal stuff...his attorney did the paperwork( an attorney can only represent one party)..filed it, and we were divorced a month later...

I answered the question because I was the one who wanted the divorce...which I would say means I "initiated" it...and I, maybe erroneously, thought that some men might actually want to know the reasons...and we could talk about it from both sides...can't say I'm totally surprised than some men would rather just tell me how "wrong" I am/was...sigh..it's something I'm familiar with....
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 392 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/26/2010 10:52:27 AM
Ya know...I made a point of saying that my ex wasn't "bad"...and that all men aren't "bad"...or all women good...what I did say, was in my case, the man I married and I were mismatched in a way that was un reconcilable..and the problem here isn't that I think there is nothing wrong with me..is that HE didn't find anything about me that he didn't like, to be a big enough concern to leave..I went crazy trying to do it all the way he wanted, and I met most of his needs, most of the time...the problem was, my needs were different, and he was unable or sometimes unwilling to see that..I tried for ten years...how much longer are you supposed to try? I didn't bail the minute things got bad...

It can't logically be concluded that because some women leave because they are unhappy with who they are with, that it means all men are bad...what about the ones who are still married? What about the ones where it was mutual? What about the ones where the man wanted out? All this thread has said is that in SOME cases the man's behavior was unacceptable to the woman in question....and in those cases it would be fair to say it is because the men were doing something unacceptable wouldn't it?

You asked why we left...we tell you...then you tell us that isn't a good enough reason..or it is the wrong reason...as usual, it appears one (general) doesn't want to know the reason...particularly if it means saying men could do some things that would help us get along better. Many seem to want to tell us what we SHOULD feel , think or do...sigh...it's this insistence on being the "right" one that gets frustrating...or the inability to admit that men aren't perfect either...

MJ: "We" did as in he agreed to counseling, and also we did extensive reading on relationships, male/female thought process differences etc...we did TWO years of counseling...he neither was willing to accept the professionals opinions/suggestions...or take anything I said as serious or important...I did everything I could as in suggesting the counseling, reading the books, cooperating in the counseling, adjusting my behavior where I could...and consistently trying to talk to him about it for years....It can't be fixed by only one person...your absolute insistence on trying to imply or out right state that it must be ALL my fault is part of the problem..he thought it was all my fault too...I didn't cause him to mistreat me, or hurt me...why would I do that? I bent over backwards trying to make sure he wouldn't...but. my behavior didn't affect his...I could do everything he wanted, just the way he wanted....and he still was the same to me...

Let's say you are right ( which you aren't ) and I am saying it is all his fault....how is that different from all you guys insisting it isn't your fault...and it is all the woman's..isn't that a pot/kettle thing?

I at no time said I was perfect...and I'll take any responsibility for anything I'm actually responsible for...but, in the case of my marriage...my flaws aren't what broke us up..because if he thought I was so terrible a person or wife...why didn't he want to divorce me? He was basically happy with things the way they were...so, I couldn't have been doing anything terrible to him now could I?

Sheesh...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 386 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 8:28:32 PM
Maybe I'm naive..but, I like to believe that MOST PEOPLE are doing the best they can and try hard not to fail..just because I initiated doesn't mean I didn't feel like I personally failed..divorce is painful for most people, regardless of who "initiated", I refuse to believe the majority go into it lightly, or for superfluous reasons,keeping in mind that one's reasons may not be the same ones another person would find "valid"...and I'm guessing there is some difference between genders, in general, as to what constitutes a "good" reason...

I think I mentioned earlier that the biggest mistake my ex and I both made was to not talk about what the expectations of each other were, or defining them...and as we got married when the "equality" thing was pretty new...my definition and his definitely didn't match...I assumed he saw it the same way as I did...

We were young, we loved each and we thought we could handle/weather anything...he came from a severely dysfunctional family and didn't have any good role models for a good marriage,,I thought love conquered all...we both believed marriage was forever...

I had a fraction of the knowledge and understanding of human behavior that I do now, and I didn't really know who I was at that time either...

We tried everything we could think of...sometimes it can't be fixed. I never believed, and still don't, that he deliberately meant to hurt me, and I certainly never meant to hurt him..

The day of our final hearing, we held hands and cried...the attorney kept asking us if we were sure we wanted a divorce...lol..

If you look at our lives now, it was the right decision for both of us. In retrospect, we both probably ignored warning bells way before we actually got married...but, I wasn't even aware there was such a thing...I chalked it up to cold feet , or my own flaws/insecurities...I am not a quitter...

We were mismatched from the beginning...but, no one told us that...and we didn't see it...

I have tried to honestly explain why I was the one who initiated the break up, and even so far as why it's most often been me...something that really never occurred to me till I saw it in a thread...the simple answer is : I was more unhappy with him, than he was with me, and that doesn't necessarily imply blame at all...could be wrong choice, blinders, naivety, a mismatch, all kinds of things..but, it is never because I take the relationship or him lightly..if anything, I hang around longer than I should, because I would prefer to fix anything that is wrong, and stay together...but, I can't do it alone, and I am not a miracle worker...

Marriage isn't easy. I wonder too, if at my age, the risks are worth it...and I'm completely aware that , in my opinion, the breakdown of marriage totally as a society is not a good thing...if I had the answers, I'd share them with everyone..lol..
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 365 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 1:06:02 PM
According to MJ: Obviously gals...men mistreat us either because we drove them to it...or we asked for it?..sheesh...

MJ, who determines who is right? Why do you assume YOUR interpretations are right?Because you are a man, and because you are using stats?

Trying to explain anything to you from a female point of view, and several of us have tried...is the perfect example of why some of us have trouble communicating with some men...this idea that they are always right and they make the rules about what is ok and what isn't...or, that their bad behavior is our fault...or that only extreme things are justification for divorcing...no wonder we give up...

And btw, my ex wasn't a monster...he was a young, flawed human who really had no clue about women or relationships...and was stubborn about seeing anything but his own point of view...Luckily, after the divorce he went into individual counseling, apologized to me for some of the more horrific things he did..and treats his new wife quite differently...he learned and grew..

And yes, quite a few things changed after we got married...including his expectations of me...and certainly he got a lot more controlling and demanding....
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 352 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 6:43:46 PM
Maffers: It appears you have the same listening "defect" my ex had...no wonder nothing changes...

First you say take responsibility for your own issues..and then when I say I did, that they weren't his to fix..you say I'm blaming him or skirting the issue? WTF? You make no sense...What I said was : my issues had nothing to do with why I left him...they weren't connected or part of the problem...my part of the problem I both owned and tried to fix/accommodate for his benefit...I DID not get the same courtesy in return...I did everything I humanly could including counseling ( both individual and couple)..my goals were not unrealistic and that was confirmed both by the professional , and later my ex husband...he did nothing to try and make it better, or fix the issues..he wouldn't believe there were any...

He mistreated me...he wouldn't stop mistreating me...he thought my feelings were a sign of weakness and irrelevant..and it has nothing to do with fairy tales or unrealistic expectations...he also suffered from this penchant of many men that think anything that would make their partner happy that is out of their comfort zone or just "silly" in their mind is "unrealistic"...

Expecting to be treated with love by someone who professes to love you, is neither a fairy tale nor unrealistic,,

And speak for yourself..Ive had exactly two failed relationships in almost thirty years..and while I can say that I had some responsibility for my marriage failing...I can state with absolute certainty that the other long term relationship..the only mistakes I made were being with him in the first place , and putting up with it as long as I did...

And it's big of you to admit that your mistake was marrying her in the first place...that doesn't sound like much about responsibility for what behavior of yours during the marriage attributed to it failing...

I initiated because it was the only option left....and he was never going to do it...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 351 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 5:14:44 PM
I actually have company, lol..and can't say much...but MJ:

I'm pretty sure the vows say " love, honor and cherish " do they not? I'd say, in my case, those were broke in spades...

The reasons I left my husband had nothing to do with my personal issues at all...those weren't his to fix...

Thanks wishes and sweetness and emma for the help...

Back later...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 333 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 11:16:32 AM

My post was not gender specific in the least way. I'm not fighting some battle of the sexes I was talking straight to the point. I cannot take care of someone of someone who's emotions require external validation to feel good about themselves. It's not about absolving anyone, its about taking control of why people feel this way. If someone places their need for external validation from their mate, to tell them and constantly reassure them of love, then the fault lies squarely on the person seeking such.


Maybe I need to be more specific here...because you are obviously assuming something about me, maybe based on your past experiences, that isn't the case..

Constant is a keyword here...in my situation ..it was never..I like me just fine..it was him who apparently didn't really like me, or would like me maybe if I changed enough about myself to suit his standards...he didn't accept me as I am...isn't that something men usually put a big premium on?

Do you consider constant criticism and belittling of someone loving?
Do you consider someone who consistently talked about how inadequate/flawed you were loving?
Do you consider someone who never in ten years, bought you flowers, or got you a card for any special occasion unless specifically asked to loving?
Do you consider someone who never did even the littlest, smallest of things for you ..without complaining about it ...loving?
Do you consider someone who let other people attack and abuse you, and kept silent loving?
Do you consider someone who after you had major surgery, was so angry you had to miss six weeks of work, refused to come to the hospital for a few days, and barely spoke to you during your recovery, and hired someone else to help you till you get back on your feet loving?

I could go on...regardless of what my self esteem issues are or were...this kind of behavior has nothing to do with it...it wasn't even basic caring...I wasn't looking for validation...I was looking for some kind of respect and loving behavior..and I know a ton of women who had the same experiences...and who when they kept trying to ask their husbands to talk about it, or compromise, or listen...or something that implied they really cared about them...were blown off and/or ignored..and this is what I am talking about...

And really..if it makes a person, of either gender, feel good to do nice things for them...why would someone refuse based on a principle of "it's not my job to be nice to you"? Don't get that at all...

EDIT to add:


But did you tell him that?


Frequently..it was just so against his nature to understand I just wanted his presence , not his problem fixing abilities...he just couldn't...

As to becoming unhappy with oneself....we can't predict the future, nor, can we predict how we will handle what comes up in the future...we all make mistakes, we all may discover later in life, whether married or not, that we need to fix behavior that is detrimental to ourselves...if the change required to be the best we can be, means leaving a situation we are in, while it may be sad..there is no reasonable alternative...you can not live in misery just to make someone else happy, or to follow any rules...you have to make yourself happy, as they say, and sometimes that means other people may be hurt, unintentionally...I believe in doing whatever is necessary to make it work...but, sometimes what you want, is just not realistic...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 331 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 10:57:18 AM

How many times has a man walked in to his lady crying and ask. What is wrong? Just to get a I DON'T KNOW!


As usual, I can't speak for every woman,..but, often if I say I don't know...it's because I actually DONT know..I know men find this hard to comprehend...in these situations..probably all I wanted was for him to hug me, hold me, and tell me it will be alright, and that he loves me...not fix anything...

If I am unhappy with something to do with him...I have no problem telling him that...but, sometimes that kind of unhappiness isn't about the guy at all..and I'm only addressing the issues he can control, or help with, in my posts...

Honestly, totally....best decision I ever made to get divorced...for both of us...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 329 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 10:35:06 AM
^^^^ Geez...you guys can always spin it to your advantage can't you?...lol..I can't speak for your personal situations.but, I, and many women I know, repeatedly tried to tell our exes what was wrong..they didn't take us seriously...


Heres the rub, no other person can make someone happy


There is a world of difference between expecting someone to MAKE you happy, and asking them to not do things that hurt you/upset you , or to understand that it does..I wasn't asking him to make me happy..I was asking him to quit doing things that made me unhappy..this is not an unreasonable request to make of someone who professes to love you...

What men consider deal breakers and what women may consider deal breakers is obviously different too...you list only the tangibles as being deal breakers...personally, any man who refuses to or can't treat me like he loves me...that would be huge a deal breaker...why be married to someone who doesn't treat you with love and understanding...

Your comments appear to both absolve men of any responsibility for care of their wives emotionally, and but the blame back on the women again..talk about tunnel vision...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 327 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 9:59:21 AM
You know what part of the problem may be?

It would be not only refreshing, but probably conducive to actually fixing the problem or relationships..if one or two guys would actually be able, willing, or brave enough to admit that they had absolutely anything to do with why their spouse/ex is/was unhappy..and work on their part too..it takes two to both make it work, and cause it's demise...

This men are perfect and women are evil/defective..is part of the problem me thinks..you can't fix a problem when the other side insists there isn't one..especially, if they aren't honest/self reflecting enough to look at how they contributed to the problem..or, even worse, dismiss the others concerns/feelings...

When more men can do that...maybe more marriages would survive and both parties would be happier...

You are your own worst enemy...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 173 (view)
 
What do girls mean when they say their last relationship was all about sex?
Posted: 4/24/2010 8:59:45 AM
Actually...I don't care what men do with other women myself( unless they are indiscriminately promiscuous, and that's just a double risk not willing to take)..the only filter I have is must not be LOOKING for intimate encounters..because it's not what I want...no judgments on what he wants to do...I try to practice what I preach...

I think it is about the double standard itself, in many cases, not that women necessarily want to be the same way...just think saying it's ok for men, but, not women, is wrong...both genders have their own boundaries, either way...some PEOPLE are ok with a busy sexual past, some are not...

A don't think women generally care about sexual pasts in themselves...they may care about the kind of sexual relationships they were, there would also be the concern that old habits are hard to break...men who object to women having a sexual past...tend to object no matter what...unless it was just who you were married to..at least in my experience...I've had men couch it as " you must be more experienced" than I am...and you can hear the disapproval in their voice..evidently , though almost all my experience came from long term relationships...it's still unacceptable to them that I had that much at all....
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 90 (view)
 
You have 30 Minutes To Impress Me!
Posted: 4/24/2010 8:06:59 AM

Why would a woman bother giving tests is beyond me - I'm not a woman!


Actually, if you read or research any human behavior or psychology information...people test people all the time, often subconsciously..has nothing to do with gender...or romance even..men test other men, women test other women, whether it's romantic, work related, or social.....it's a mechanism for finding those that are compatible to your vision, or are "safe" for you, it's a defense mechanism, probably leftover from more primitive times...

There are some people who diabolically plot testing as a means to get what they want...but, I think that's rarer than some think it is...If we consciously thought about all our interactions during the day, I think we might be surprised that we do some testing as a matter of course...sometimes about minor things...sometimes major..employers typically test their employees, or new hires ,sometimes overtly...the truth is..most of us have to prove ourselves to employers, lovers, friends...sometimes even families...because actions do speak louder than words...

I'm still of the opinion that if the OP is interested enough to meet, it doesn't hurt to meet and see if it wasn't just a misunderstanding, a defense response, or even a little fear...let some actions prove or disprove what she actually meant...

And OP...please do let us know how it went..lol..curious minds want to know..lol..
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 321 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 7:31:02 AM
I still think it's a combination of how women deal with unhappiness, and how men do (barring outright infidelity/abuse, etc)...

When I ask men who are serial cheaters ( as in, this isn't just a one time or one woman occurrence, they actively seek someone on a regular basis) why they cheat...most will say it is either non existent or unsatisfactory sex, ,some may say and/or also being treated very badly emotionally...when I ask them why they don't either find out what's wrong and fix the problem, or leave...some may say (especially if they are younger and have small children) they have too much to lose to leave, ( but older men whose children are grown, don't seem to fear that)but, I have had some claim they actually love their wives ( which doesn't compute in my brain), and they wouldn't do that to her?...but, I have heard few who would even address the "fix" what's wrong part...they seem to have accepted it and found a alternative solution that works for them...they appear to be able to weather what's wrong, in order to keep what they think is good/right. They have decided ,without apparent effort, going by what they say, that it can't be fixed? I doubt most of them know why things got bad with their wives...though I'm not saying that is always or entirely their fault, but, they never seem to have even tried to figure it out..

When I got divorced I lost a lifestyle, and a much more secure retirement..and security in general, (since I don't have children I didn't have that to consider)( and one of the best friends (in a platonic sense) O ever had ...while those are all nice things, in the scheme of what matters to me...they weren't as important as feeling loved and accepted...and most important...like he was on my side...

I thought about the women try to change men ,and women change comment frequently...in my case, if I tried to change anything , it was probably more like ,I first of all, ignored warning bells before we got married about things that did upset me about how he treated me emotionally, and some part of me must have thought, if not consciously, that he would be nicer once we got married..and just plain didn't realize how mismatched we were on that point...and I never saw or understood the control factor then...I was young, with little experience in relationships..and I think I was attracted in some sense to his "leading, take charge" persona...it was comforting, and "masculine" , and a lot like my father, whom I adored...

I didn't change that I can figure out...most of his complaints about me were things he had always known ( like that I didn't want children), that I'm sentimental and cry easily, and that I liked to go out and do fun things, at least once in awhile, and that I appreciated romantic gestures...and I didn't value money, in itself, the same way he did...

In the end, I am positive it had more to do with we both had expectations of the other, that we never discussed , and assumed the other automatically knew what their role was to be...and in our case, while he believed in equality, as far as me working, he really didn't believe in it in any other aspect...and I totally admit I should have seen some of this coming..naivety? Love? Hope?

I gave him numerous opportunities to work with me, and fix it for both of us, including the counseling..he just wasn't interested or willing..he truly believed that how he saw the world ( and me and marriage) was the only acceptable/valid way..and there was no reason for him to adjust or take my feelings into consideration..because I was wrong...but, he was willing to put up with what he didn't like , to keep what he did...I wasn't...because the bottom line was, what I was unhappy about, was the most important thing in my mind...

While my idealistic side believes in marriage till death do us part..pragmatically, I don't think it's always possible, and I know that you can't predict ahead of time how things will go...My intent was to be married forever, and I would have been if I hadn't been so terribly unhappy...I never thought God meant ..stay married even if it's miserable, either...

I think if women, generally, initiate it more, it might be because they aren't willing to be emotionally unhappy to keep any tangible advantages..while men will keep the tangibles, and deal however they can with the emotional ones..

And capitano...while I'm too polite/nice to really "kick anyone to the curb" , I generally make one last plea for working it out, and it hurts me too...I will say that the only men who have ever broken up with me, it has always been because they have found another woman they like better, or who seems to fit their needs better...and I don't mean this in a bragging or conceited way at all...but, from the point of view of men I have broken up with, if I am to believe them, whatever they didn't like, never outweighed what they did...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 314 (view)
 
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 9:30:21 PM

Summary dissolution and dissolution are words that describe divorce talk to any attorney and they can explain.


Sigh...ok...maybe this will help...I work with domestic attys...a dissolution is a KIND of divorce...it doesn't describe all divorces..it is a legal term...common usage is to call it a NO FAULT"...
 
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