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 Author Thread: Why do men date pregnant women?
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 34 (view)
 
Why do men date pregnant women?
Posted: 3/9/2017 10:06:11 AM
It's not just men, you know. Women go after pregnant women as well. Available or not. I remember being young, pregnant and married, out with friends and being hit on by men and women both- as I recall, many of those women were drop dead gorgeous. Some of the offers were... interesting, shall we say...
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 7 (view)
 
Pet Peeve
Posted: 3/9/2017 9:39:37 AM
Agreed. Pictures of children don't belong on your dating profile. Male or female. And if your children are still young and living at home, you shouldn't share with them all the details about someone you are dating until you are ready to let them walk through your front door and introduce them to your family. My family is pretty tight, and my kids are all adults. Sometimes we talk about who we're dating, but there still aren't pictures of them- my kids (boys and girls both) are far prettier than I ever was. *laughing*

More seriously, when I am looking, if someone has kids in any of their pictures, I don't care what else they have posted- not interested. Period. Then again, I've finished raising my children (and many others as well) and truly have zero interest in raising yours too.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 62 (view)
 
Women, would you date a guy who is impotent?
Posted: 3/9/2017 12:17:19 AM
Hmmm... depends. My current primary relationship is impotent. He wasn't always that way. Life and such. *shrug* I'm not going anywhere, and neither is he. Something about lots of love, shared intimacy, trust, and a willingness to compromise. And my granddaughters and his grandsons going camping and fishing. *Laughing* Fact of the matter is, he's very able to satisfy me in other ways most of the time, yet recognises that sometimes I need the 'real deal.' So, we have a mutual friend that we both trust. When I get like that, he says "Go. I'll see you in a few days." and trusts that'll I'll come back. And I do. Because a relationship isn't about the sex, it's about everything- including the sex.

Would I do it again? Maybe. For me, it's about the relationship. No real relationship there? Probably not. Relationship potential? Maybe. What have you got that I want? Sex is not the top thing on my list.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 12 (view)
 
Weirdest POF Encounter
Posted: 3/9/2017 12:00:26 AM
*laughing*

Aintnodeal, they're usually pretty much as anticipated. My picker's usually pretty good- personal and business. If you want to know what's out there about you, start with some online searches. If you REALLY want to know, pay a good firm a reasonable amount of money, and they'll give you a report as detailed as you like. :) It's a good way to vet various agencies if it's something you do regularly. I'm a trust but verify kind of girl.

Back on topic... there are a LOT of weirdos out there, and I've been told of numerous weird encounters. Thankfully, I haven't had many myself.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 8 (view)
 
Weirdest POF Encounter
Posted: 3/8/2017 9:34:42 AM
Hmmm...

That would either be the guy that completely misrepresented himself, showed up 1/2 hour early to a regular event that I help host , creeped out both the bar manager and about half of the regular patrons of said event, and refused to let me do my job until I put my foot down and the bar manager (a very good friend of mine- who is unfortunately adorably flaming) asked permission to toss him. He kept insisting that I needed to leave with him and go somewhere else.- knowing that I was working this event in his town (about 4 hours from where I was living at the time, although I have strong ties there and have since moved back) and wasn't leaving and would have very limited time to speak with him. He's been back to the bar a few times since, looking for me, and Rocky (bless his soul) has given him a blank look and said "Who?"

Or they guy I had been dating for several months that got so severely offended that I joined a discussion here in the forums regarding background checks and immediately texted me to tell me to lose his number and never contact him again. FTR, yes, I background check. I have a set of criteria that has to be met for me to do it, but, it's very rare. Short version: everything's been going fine and suddenly there are red flags appearing (too many things that don't add up) , or because I have a certain public persona, and I need to know more about your past before I move forward from where we are. It is ALWAYS a consensual thing. With very few exceptions, I have had the information to make it easy to do offered to me as soon as the subject comes up. Secrets aren't my thing at a certain point in a relationship. Yes, I offer the same in return- I have little to hide, and am willing to talk about those things (they WILL come up on a professional search).

Hey ^campfires^ are you still around here?
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 408 (view)
 
Should performing a background check on a potential bf/gf be considered as a sign of insecurity?
Posted: 3/7/2013 11:40:49 AM
Arlo_...

It sounds like you are jumping to conclusions. You have no idea what *my* dreams are... I have not shared them with you- and I won't. My dreams DO overlap (and are in the process of becoming) reality, but La-la land? Not so much. Cinderella, White Knights, unicorns... blah... real life and real possibilities are much more fun and interesting.

Power play? Not so much again. Not something I "enjoy" either, simply something I "do"... there is just a point where verification is a good thing. There are things in my life that would be jeapordised and/or destroyed by not performing due diligence. It's reasonable to assume that someone I was involved with to the extent that I "felt the need" to verify would also have the same or similar... and would also do the same. I am okay with that, and expect it.

There is nothing "sneaky, underhanded" or weasely about it. Different worlds, different socioeconomic strata... apparently. In some places, some things are the norm, in others, not so much. The world has become a much bigger place in some ways... it exposes us to "the other side"- whatever that is... and things that are habitual that we never imagined.

Maleman... the world has changed much since those days... and yet, changed little. Denying that those same risks and realities were present in the past... is a denial of reality... read a history book. :)
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 403 (view)
 
Should performing a background check on a potential bf/gf be considered as a sign of insecurity?
Posted: 3/7/2013 10:13:18 AM
Not really... just pointing out that having dreams doesn't equate to living in La-la land, that's all.

No, reread my previous posts. Fact is, that although I DO background checks, it's much further down the line... so I do very few of them... maybe a handful of people over the years have made it far enough for me to do one, with only one recently... those lovely little red flags and all that... on the dating side anyway... business is a different matter... those are much more frequent and common... and then friends and family is yet another matter... that one is somewhere in between.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 400 (view)
 
Should performing a background check on a potential bf/gf be considered as a sign of insecurity?
Posted: 3/7/2013 9:36:47 AM
Maleman999 & Arlo_:

Try reading these. For some reason, I didn't feel a need to repeat myself endlessly.

In this thread: posts 48, 52, 79, 120, 263, 272, 363

And then in my posting history, there is much more... try the personal security thread...

Fact of the matter is, we are all damaged to some extent. At some point, verification of what we *think we know* is a very good idea. I have never advocated for "immediately" or before a first meet... just that it needs to happen somewhere down the line if we decided to continue. Maleman is right... face to face meetings should come first, as well as a few dates. I don't disagree with that. How much information is needed to do is a background check depends on the person it is being done on. Sometimes a name and a face and age range is enough, others require more.

Arlo_... about dreams... don't try to second guess someone else's. Mine are far from the norm. In our heart of hearts... want we each want truly is different... maybe you should think about that. As a guy I dated for a while once told me... the brass ring... find and grab onto the brass ring... if you don't really reach out, find your own dream and follow it, what is the point? :)
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 17 (view)
 
Keeping Photos of an ex after it's over?
Posted: 3/7/2013 1:49:23 AM

I do think that a lucky charm is a bit....well let's say misplaced in this instance. However I'd say take it as a compliment and let him believe that it protects him. It would be awful if you insisted on it back and heaven forbid something happened to him.


Agreed. Why do you think that he has managed to continue to win the argument for over 20 years now? I have a lot of military in my history... if a pic of me, taken in bad lighting, with no makeup and dressed in jeans and a t-shirt that is that old makes him believe that he'll come home safe again... who the hell am I to deny him? Especially since we have a deal... he's carrying my casket, I am NOT crying over his. I just wish he'd change his mind.

OT: I am not going to delete pictures... no matter who they are. The FB page I never log into has pics of the about-to-be-ex... they are there for the children and the friends and family. They are a part of my own personal history. I am not going to try to change the past, that would be delusional- at the very least.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 13 (view)
 
Emotional men
Posted: 3/7/2013 1:20:01 AM
Because while men are often portrayed as fierce and adamant, completely controlled and master of their emotions... they are also, should you choose to look beneath the surface... kind and gentle, loving and caring, very emotional, and many times, too easily attached to those who have influence in their lives.

A man may be physically bigger, stronger, more remote and controlled, but should you choose to see the true person beneath the facade, there is a warm and vibrant spirit beneath. One that needs the bond you might have rejected and maybe not even realised that he made... with and to you.

So, they are more easily damaged, fragile in their own special way... just as women are the same in theirs. Truth is, women are better structured mentally and emotionally for getting over it than men are... we have just been conditioned by our societies and religions for far too long that it is otherwise.

Women, as a general rule, choose their bonds and the depth of them, and are capable of creating and maintaining many more of them throughout their lifetimes than men. Men, not so much. Those tend to be few and far between... and they tend to last, for good or ill, for a lifetime.

True happiness does come from within... a true and compassionate heart... love given without expectation. That we, as humans, have forgotten this and focus elsewhere for that happiness instead is just another facet of our own self destruction. If you truly feel so cold... I can only feel sorrow for you... you are missing out on some of the greatest joys of a lifetime.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 395 (view)
 
Should performing a background check on a potential bf/gf be considered as a sign of insecurity?
Posted: 3/6/2013 11:31:50 PM
maleman999:

For some of us, it isn't about the red flag... that will end things on it's own, in time. After all, a red flag is a reason to stop and reconsider, to end. That should never be ignored. It's not about desperation either. It's about making sure that we aren't missing anything significant a bit further down the line... before things get too serious to back out easily... without hard feelings... confirmation, of sorts... that you are indeed who and what you have said you are, so that we can go forward with due diligence, and create with you the life we are wanting... and sometimes... of our dreams. Most of us (male and female) come out of a divorce or other LTR damaged in some way, the most obvious manifestation, is in a lack of trust on some level. This will actually help us to relearn to trust our own judgments... that what we think we know is correct... and to act accordingly in a timely manner. It teaches us to trust ourselves, our instincts, our intuitions... and not give in to blind fear. It is a good thing... uplifting, enlightening. In a strange way... it allows us to love fully and completely again... with all of the potential that can hold. :)
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 13 (view)
 
Keeping Photos of an ex after it's over?
Posted: 3/6/2013 11:12:44 PM
I don't think about it. I know I have some of him... saw them recently when looking on my external drive for certain pics of our children, there were some of me too. I know he has some of me... he asked for them the last time he went to Afghanistan... if he deletes them, oh well. If he keeps them, oh well again. It doesn't bother me. *shrug*

What does bother me... when I am reminded of it... is the fully clothed picture of me that the best friend prints out over and over again every time he is deployed... to keep in his pillowcase... he says it's his good luck charm and the reason that he has (multiple) purple hearts, not a casket with a flag on it. I can't take it back, he took it years ago. Sometimes he changes it out for a different one of me, but I do know which one he usually keeps in his pillowcase... and his wallet. I might have been 20 when he took it. Maybe. What the woman he is about to marry thinks of it, I don't know- she hasn't told me, but I know that she knows he carries it... especially into Iraq (8 times now, I think) and every time he goes to Padia Beach.

Thanks for the reminder... he has orders again for next year... it might be time to have that argument again... he needs to change the pic of me for the one of the woman who is about to be his wife. Or at the least, for one of his daughter. *sigh*
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 76 (view)
 
He says I have potential to be beautiful.
Posted: 3/3/2013 9:06:12 PM
Ugh! I've run into that type. Seems to be a possession and leaving his mark on you thing from what I've gotten. Which is a type of control issue. Why you're talking to your boss about him is beyond me, but, I agree... curbside he should go.

I don't let guys treat me like a doll.

That doesn't mean I can't or won't "clean up", pull it out and put it on when the occasion calls for it... however, I don't do it without a good reason anymore- and certainly not because a man wants it or especially when he wants to pay for it.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 83 (view)
 
Does it matter if he lies about his age
Posted: 3/3/2013 7:13:05 PM
I think it depends on what you're looking for in the relationship.
If you're looking LTR, yes. It's a trust/integrity/honesty issue.
If you're looking for something else (friend, STR, IE, etc), not so much.
Depends on where you're at and where you're looking to go.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 42 (view)
 
Do you think the influence of income can change someone’s personality?
Posted: 3/3/2013 4:35:38 PM
Short answer: Yes. But not always the person that you think or in the ways it will.

Longer Answer: My first job came at 12 years old. In a family owned law firm. Yes, it was more learning than working, in the beginning. I stayed there until I had learned everything that I could. When I left to go to college, I had learned and used the skills for a competent just about anything except lawyer (and some of those as well) that the firm had to offer. So, despite having a silver spoon of sorts, I had a bit more. Then I went off to other employment and places. And along the way married an engineering student.

In 1992, when my first child was born, I stayed home for almost a year. Things weren't easy. It was the first time I hadn't worked since I was a kid. It made me a little nuts. In 1993 I went back to work- cold- new city, no network or personal contacts, new everything, because my spouse had taken a job elsewhere doing something I could never have predicted. By 1995, I had networked myself into a job that I absolutely loved. I worked long, hard hours to get it and to keep it. It paid double what my spouse was making.

He lost it. Completely. Suddenly, everything had to be right now, expensive, the best. There had been some hints previously, but nothing like this. Quarter cheeseburger nights at McDonald's followed by the dollar movie theater were no longer acceptable dates. There was more money in the checkbook than he had ever seen, but the bills (his agreed responsibility) were never paid on time as they had been before. Bigger house, new car... nothing was good enough. And it all came from my paycheck. And he resented it. And made sure that I knew it in as many ways possible. Call it the beginning of the end, not just for that job or another one like it, but for us as well.

Yes, I fully admit to having been "18 and stupid" once upon a time, even if I was 25 back then. One hopes that I have learned something along the way... and that it wasn't all bad.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 13 (view)
 
Soul mate?
Posted: 2/20/2013 12:47:54 AM
I don't think it really matters what anyone else thinks... what matters is how she is defining the term... people have different understandings of what it means... I think it depends upon the cycle....

Personally? A singular "soul mate"? No. But, I do believe that we meet other souls that we have known before and that we do it for a reason... a lesson- to either teach or learn; a payment, a repayment; a love- to fulfill or to deny; ... many reasons. I believe in karmic and soul balance, even if it should take multiple lifetimes to achieve. There is a reason for the wheel and the soul progression on it, but then again, I am considered to be an "old soul", a teacher,a guide, a mentor, and other things. YMMV. Seek and ye shall find.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 335 (view)
 
Should performing a background check on a potential bf/gf be considered as a sign of insecurity?
Posted: 2/19/2013 11:48:21 PM
Oh, geez... this is NOT hard.

Message here on POF until your common sense or intuition or best friend or whatever has enough to make a basic judgement call. Yes, that means: bad vibes=NO meet.

Meet in public taking whatever precautions you feel are appropriate (yeah, yeah, I know, some of you think I'm an extremest... but I've carried every day of my life for more years than I want to count to every place I've gone excepting courthouses, banks, hospitals and post offices- not going to change ever probably... and I've had a handgun in reach at home for longer... residual effect of an interesting life).

If the other person is deemed suitable, date them casually while getting to know them.

If/when you feel you know them well enough and they are compatible enough, commit to exclusivity. I assume that if it hasn't already happened, at this point there will be sex between the two of you. :)

At some time when things begin to turn serious, ie: framework and discussions of LT, moving in together or possibly marriage... do a full investigation.

If the investigation come back with whatever you wanted to know and no surprises... then move forward, if there are surprises... then you either need to have a long talk and get some explanations and/or consider whether to continue as before or cutting it off.

At ANY point from first message onward you (either one of you) have both the right and responsibility (to yourself, if no one else) to end the relationship (without regard to the "type" of "relationship") with or without notice or explanation. If you are not comfortable and you can't or won't work it out, you NEED to walk. Period.

This is a basic weeding out process. Oh, remember to make sure that at some point in the dating process they read your forum posting history (on whatever forums you are active on, not just this one) and you read theirs, there are fewer surprises that way. All the way through this... communicate. If you don't know how... take a class at your local college or something.

Simple, yes?

My personal perspective is that you don't need to tell anyone what you have done or are considering doing with regard to an investigation or that they should or should not do one on you. What they choose to do or not is their responsibility, not yours. Personally... should it come to the point that I am doing one, I expect that they either are or already have. I am very selective about who I allow into my life as more than a casual acquaintance and quite frankly, they should be too... and so should you. I have no problem cutting out people who don't mesh for whatever reason at ANY stage.

I've only broken this list once... I got the investigation done before meeting the person... because he wanted me to- because of an unusual situation... I'll let you know how it goes... maybe. :)

And people wonder why they irritate me...
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 18 (view)
 
Polyamory good for you?
Posted: 2/16/2013 11:57:14 AM
Tall Glass... I think I'm just as confused as 3ffervescent. What's "improper"? What's "treasonous"?

And who the hell said anything about a bed with 3 people in it????
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 17 (view)
 
Polyamory good for you?
Posted: 2/16/2013 10:59:24 AM
3ffervescent: There are many reasons and ways a person gravitates toward a polyamorous lifestyle. I think the most important and most successful ones have to with love... true compassion, openness, generosity, caring... real, true deep love... for one's self, people in general, for those in their lives, for friends and family... love that has healthy boundaries, but no actual limits. People who can love like this understand that love is an all encompassing thing, that it is a gift that once given that cannot be returned to the giver... but the giver is open to, accepting of receipt of a similar gift from another. They also tend to understand that love is many things and quite varied.

Often, one has the ability to make strong, stable lifetime connections to others... those connections continue to strengthen over time... Think about it this way: who do you say "I love you" to? Why? Now think about those in your life that you love, but you don't say that to. Why don't you? What is stopping you? How you were brought up? Social/societal norms? Feeling/thought that the other wouldn't understand what you mean if you do? Something else?

English is an incredibly limited language in it's current usage. The word "love" is strictly defined to mean certain things... generally speaking, however, love means so much more than that. If one is open to all of the things that love can mean, one is much more likely to have a happier, healthier life with many rich, fulfilling and rewarding relationships in it.

Besides... who would want just one limited love, when one can have many, unlimited loves that can bring greater joy, happiness, experiences, depth and perspective to their life and the lives of others? Polyamory means "many loves"... love doesn't equate to sex.

Agape, Eros and Philo don't all mean the same thing... but the English word "love" encompasses them all. Something to think about...
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 10 (view)
 
Polyamory good for you?
Posted: 2/15/2013 1:55:40 PM
Igor, I wasn't going to respond to your first post, but something about it kept nagging at me, so here goes:



My first reaction to the title of this thread was "Oh great!! Here, I can't find ONE woman who likes me enough as a long term mate, and these guys are going to tell me that to stay healthy, I have to find TWO or more. Way to put the pressure on, guys."


I understand the knee jerk, it's fairly typical ideation, if a negative one. A reminder: polyamory doesn't always equal polygyny or polygamy... among other things, it can also include polyandry. Let me attempt to widen your worldview a bit (yes, I understand it's already fairly broad as I can read) and present a different scenario for your consideration:

First, accept this premise: one person cannot and often should not be all things to another as it has a tendency to lead to a high level of eventual co-dependency and dysfunctionality that is often detrimental to both parties.

Second, accept also: all things are a matter of personal perspective and relational dynamics.

Mary has a long term ongoing commitment on multiple levels, including cohabitation, with John. They have an excellent relationship that is high in communication, emotional availability and attachment, commitment, mental exchange, sexual compatibility, mutual interests, goals, dreams and desires, etc. This is her primary "romantic permanent relationship". Mary is polyandrous. John knows this, and although he, himself is monogamously inclined, allows that Mary needs something more... another perspective, if you will. So, Mary also has a long term committed relationship on multiple levels with Tom on a secondary level and includes many of the same attributes and characteristics as the relationship with John, in different areas and ratios. The main differences being that Tom is mostly monogamous with Mary, but has an occasional "other" (for lack of a better word) and there is only periodic short term cohabitation. Both John and Tom are aware of the part the other plays in Mary's life and are comfortable and agreed to it. The interaction of Mary with John and Tom individually provides her with greater perspective and balance that allows for greater growth in both her relationship with John and her relationship with Tom, as well as her relationship with herself and the world around her.

Now that you have the scenario... take a step outside yourself...

You are John. What's your comfort level? Why? Can you see this as being a healthy relationship? Why or why not?

Now, play with the presented relationships and ratios a little. Does that increase your comfort level? or decrease it? What if you are Tom? Why?

The questions are obviously rhetorical and require no response as the answers will be as individual as the persons involved. This is also an example of but one possible situation out of a possibly infinite number and also not for everyone. But, it is something to think about, if for no other reason than to learn something about yourself and your own boundaries and the whys thereof.


*Edited* for readability
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 9 (view)
 
Polyamory good for you?
Posted: 2/15/2013 10:22:00 AM
It's an opinion article. Of course it's going to be biased and stress all of the plusses of the idea- and ignores anything outside the author's limited definition. It brings out for consideration a lifestyle that is out of the norm... sensationalising, attention grabbing... and focuses on the things that some people within it do right. It also says that those same things would make more traditional relationships better, stronger, longer lasting.

It presents the idea that this is a viable lifestyle/ relationship type, something that the average American or Western European with a Christeo-Judaeo background, or Middle Easterner with an Islamic background is going to have a hard time wrapping their mind around... their holy books and doctrinal teachings prohibit such a thing except in limited specific circumstances in part because each of the associated religions is patriarchial in nature.

I don't think that polyamory was well defined in the article and that the conclusions made in it are subjective as a result. There are all kinds of people in this world, and they all think a little differently from each other. It's all about perspective.

I think that most people define polyamory differently in their own heads, and that, combined with their upbringing and experiences, determines what they think of the idea and whether or not they would consider it to be a valid option for them.

I think the article focuses more on what ideally happens in these relationships... not what often happens. Those things: communication, emotional availability, happiness, open mindedness, etc. are good for any relationship and are known factors in the longevity and stability of such.

So, to answer the OP's question, yes, it can be... or... it can be very bad for you. It (like most things) all depends on you.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 3 (view)
 
Does long distance relationship work?
Posted: 2/14/2013 10:21:12 PM
Yes, it can work. It requires a LOT of patience, trust, respect and COMMUNICATION on both sides. Regular scheduled contact... skype works well for that. Regular scheduled visits of more than just a weekend. HOWEVER, it is only feasible to maintain for a limited period of time. There must be an end date in mind that is mutually agreeable and a plan to get there that you are both working toward.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 249 (view)
 
Should performing a background check on a potential bf/gf be considered as a sign of insecurity?
Posted: 2/14/2013 7:23:49 PM
MuscularVampire... I never said I do a check before hand, that I have only done once... because the person it was on asked me to for reasons of their own- and volunteered the information I needed and more.

I do investigations at a certain point in certain types of relationships. This includes more that just potential "romantic relationships".

I also do NOT leave it to internet sources. I hire professionals who know where and how to find whatever it is that I want to know. It's costs a bit more, but gives much more information. No real name? No big deal... as I said before... whatever was in the offing becomes a no go. As far a a no name hit goes... the investigator will let me know and ask if I wish to pursue further investigation. Although, I should say... my picker is better than that... for both personal and business... I've never had that happen and I've never been surprised by the investigator's report.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 240 (view)
 
Should performing a background check on a potential bf/gf be considered as a sign of insecurity?
Posted: 2/14/2013 10:45:01 AM
It looks like the majority of people here are divorced-especially the over 30 crowd. A question for the divorced or coomon-law gone wrong people: I'm assuming most of you never did a background check on your ex before or while you two were dating. If you did a background check on him/her before getting serious, would it have changed your situation with that person and prevented a divorce


Yes, a background check and actually a full investigation was done before we were married.... however, a 20 year old from the average middle class family 20 years ago didn't really have a whole lot of "red flags" in his past, he hadn't had enough time or life experience to raise them. His family, on the other hand, raised quite a few... that I chose to ignore for various reasons.

People change over time... especially when they first marry relatively young. Sometimes you grow together, sometimes apart. No, I didn't make the best choice, but, I knew what I was getting into when I went into it... at least until he changed the game completely, something that NO ONE could have pulled from his background... even his close friends and family were/are shocked at some of the things he has done.

So, my conclusion is that for someone in their early years, yes, it can be helpful, but not necessarily predict behavior mostly because the person hasn't finished learning and growing and often doesn't know themselves yet. Later life experience has shown me that someone in the 40+ age range that an investigation is much more likely to be relevant to the future.

That said, although I DO do investigations, I don't do them randomly or rely on an internet source for them. And I almost never do one before meeting someone for the first time (once, it was a special case).
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 33 (view)
 
What do you wish for your ex?
Posted: 2/8/2013 1:25:51 AM
I have many things I wish...

The most important one, I think, is that he stop being self destructive and start to know himself.

Should he figure that out, I think he has a chance at all of the other things (they are good things) I wish for him.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 111 (view)
 
Should performing a background check on a potential bf/gf be considered as a sign of insecurity?
Posted: 2/8/2013 1:15:11 AM
Bratty... I think you directed your post to the wrong person. ^campfires^ said that he thought both parties doing background checks is the smart thing to do- and I agree with him. He might understand better than you think... unlike some other posters here. :/

*edited* because my brain got ahead of my fingers. :)
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 72 (view)
 
Should performing a background check on a potential bf/gf be considered as a sign of insecurity?
Posted: 2/7/2013 12:36:37 AM
The really scary thing is that these women think that a Google search, a local or state search, will expose a "dangerous" person. It's a false sense of security.
Agreed. These online agencies sometimes do more harm than good.

To do an accurate backround check you need to hire a detective, and (as mentioned in previous posts) get a SSN, DOB and driver's license.
Only partially true. With a GOOD investigator, who knows what he's doing, you only need one of those things. Every other piece of information you can give them to flesh out the person helps, and will increase informational output. Sometimes it takes a bit longer. I have once pointed out a face on the street and gave the name that I was given. In a week, I had everything I needed and more. That was back in the 90s, systems are much more sophisticated now and personal information much easier to obtain.

These women think they are safe (maybe their gut tells them than something is hinkey), they do a cheesy search and then let their guard down. This is the perfect time for an abuser to attack.
Agreed. Much safer to trust their guts and cut loose. It also saves the cost of whatever "investigation" they might initiate.

With all of the scammers out there, there is no way I will risk my credit by offering my SSN and similiar identifying info. They could rip me off.
Agreed again. You should NEVER offer your SSN, However, someone who wants it badly enough and has reason can get it anyway.

People move too fast to be safe anymore.

If you want to move fast, it appears that you will suffer the consequences.
Enough said. Go slow. Take it easy. There is always time.

If it's truly there: Trust, but... verify.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 48 (view)
 
Should performing a background check on a potential bf/gf be considered as a sign of insecurity?
Posted: 2/4/2013 8:06:57 PM
licoricecat_1

Are you sure you that you didn't date my blood father? That mostly sounds like him, except that last time I checked, he was down south and on wife number 6 or so.

OT- yes, I'm actually more inclined to check someone met in real life before someone I met online. People tend to tell me things, most are verifiable with a simple phone call. It's rare that someone outright lies to me that I've met face to face (without regard to where I was introduced to them). I get told a lot that I'm very easy to talk to, not usually easy to understand, mind you, just easy to talk to. *smile* People who contact me (from wherever) usually want something. Before I give, I first listen carefully, then check. Simple.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 44 (view)
 
Should performing a background check on a potential bf/gf be considered as a sign of insecurity?
Posted: 2/4/2013 7:54:57 PM
I've had numerous background checks done on me throughout my life, for many, varied reasons-from very basic, to extremely extensive. I have a pretty well documented life as a result. If you have enough information on me to do one, be my guest. I am not offended.

I have also run background checks on others. Again, for many and varied reasons. I don't make a big deal about it, you'll probably never know I did it. There comes a point in certain types of relationships where I need to verify information and I will. It doesn't make you a criminal or a sleezebag. I simply need to know in order to make sound decisions. If that offends you, you aren't the person I thought you were, so whatever was in the offing becomes an automatic no-go. *shrugs*

I will say that I have seen reports from many of these online "background check" companies. What you can get from them on me is laughable compared to what is available elsewhere. Limited and out of date doesn't begin to cover it. If you are going to bother to do something, please do it right. There is no excuse for sloppy workmanship, a good investigator isn't THAT expensive. I can even recommend a few in different locations. *laughing*
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 12 (view)
 
First dateon POF !
Posted: 2/1/2013 12:11:11 AM
STOP. Breathe. Relax. Think.

Now that you're calmed down just a little, use the KISS rule. Keep It Simple Stupid. You are 35, not 16. It might have been a while, but you have done this before.

All you are going to do is meet up with a potential new friend. Simple, yes?

Go someplace public and open. Smile, relax, have a good time, have fun. I'm assuming you've chitchatted with this man a bit, so continue the conversation wherever you left off- just like you would do with your girlfriends. You follow the flow when you're with them, yes? Same here. The only difference is, if something makes you uncomfortable- say so. If you feel the need to leave, DO so.

Read what tnt wrote again about being safe. Take whatever level of precautions for yourself you feel comfortable with, but let someone you trust know where you are going, who with, and when you expect to be home- if the plan changes, let them know. Make sure that you have enough money on you that you can cover whatever is needed, just in case.

Breathe. You'll be just fine.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 15 (view)
 
Pen Pals???
Posted: 1/31/2013 10:50:58 PM
I'm with ^campfires^ on this one. To wit:


Online dating is just an ego boost for 98 percent of women here.

I must be contacting the other 2%. Typical inaccurate generalization by the unsuccessful. (shakes head)

I almost always mention meeting by the 3rd message or have them on the phone by then. It's rarely past the 5th message. They almost always respond positively, want to meet, plan the date, and they all actually show up, and look like their pics.
Sometimes I think some of the people posting in the forums are on a different site.

When I am meeting people, I may not go as fast as he does (3-5 messages), but I tell those who message me that I don't want to meet "Thanks, but no thanks" within a message or two-before the subject of meeting comes up and cut contact. My profile does a lot of the weeding for me, so there aren't many of those. The ones that are left also respond positively, show up, look like their pics and generally are who/what they say they are. Maybe it's just where I live? *laughing*
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 21 (view)
 
not used to being in a LTR anymore..how do I do it?
Posted: 1/31/2013 9:40:21 PM
Thank you for sharing your story, Import_from_UK. It easily matches a part of my own, and, unless I am severely mistaken, that of many other women as well-not just today, but historically also.
Of course I did what I needed to but I also for the first time did something I hadn't done before. To truly examine my belief system, to consider who I wanted to be and of course part of that process was to consider if I wanted a relationship in the future. To question the very basic elements of my whole family experience, with consideration of no one but myself.

I allowed myself to acknowledge that I didn't need a partner in the traditional sense. I was managing perfectly well by myself despite having some hurdles to deal with. I was beginning to rebuilt the confident woman I used to be. I had no one else to rely on for even the smallest of favors and I think for me, that helped. To be stripped away to having nothing and no one. Over time, I realized that I would like a partner vs needing one but it had to be the right partner. I've always been an all or nothing type.

I am confident that I won't accept the wrong person again because I no longer have the illusion that adults are meant to be part of a couple. Some are. Some aren't. Some are at the right time only.

I think this is key, and so deserves repetition. Taking the time to make these discoveries is one of the things I feel/have found so many never do, much to their detriment.

OT- Know thyself. One day at a time. Grow and learn, about yourself and the world you are currently a part of. Recognise and assess your needs and desires, make a plan and follow it. When you are ready, the pieces tend to fall into place as needed.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 18 (view)
 
Passionate Friendship
Posted: 1/30/2013 7:44:54 PM
I knew a woman several years ago who had a terminal cancer. She was married and had several relatively young children. When she figured out that nothing was going to save her life, she sat her husband down and they talked. End result, she hand picked the woman who eventually replaced her in her husband and children's lives. I'm not completely sure how she went about it, but I do know that the new woman was living with them, fully integrated into their lives and the kids calling her "mom" over a year before she died. The husband married the woman within a year of his first wife's death. It's been a few years now and they are still happily together.

I think it is a viable option. I am aware of similar happenings during the westward expansion of the US. I don't know that I could be completely sanguine about it if approached by the man. The way that it was handled in the situation I am familiar with, the wife approached the woman. Under the right set of circumstances, I might be okay with that, but I would need a LOT more information before I could make a decision.

Can it work? Yes, at least so far for the couple I know. Is it something most would be comfortable with? I think not.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 12 (view)
 
Real world Vs Internet profile, would you still date the same person?
Posted: 1/25/2013 9:40:37 PM
I really had to think about this. I seem (to myself anyway) to be just as selective either way- online and IRL. I intentionally don't have a lot of meets or dates from either.

I met the best friend IRL a LONG time ago. He has a profile here. Based on the profile? Nope, not a chance. IRL, he got a chance and became a lifelong friend.

The ex I met IRL, also a long time ago. Had he written a profile here, he would have gotten a look. More than that? I doubt it.

The guy I'm currently seeing? Has a pretty sketchy profile online, but started with great messages. That got him a meet, and several subsequent dates. Had I met him IRL first? I don't know. I might have given him a chance, he's pretty fun and chatty. And handsome.

I do know that I have been told by those I have met from here that I was not as anticipated based on my profile... I was even better in person. Whatever that means. I wish they generally had been. *shrugs*

I have other experiences, these are the ones that stand out. I'd say it's a wash.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 13 (view)
 
should his online activity bother me?
Posted: 1/25/2013 9:29:40 AM
What the h3ll is the deal with jumping straight from one relationship (that isn't, to all appearances, finished yet) into another so quickly? I mean, yes, like him. Yes, date him. NO, don't commit to exclusivity immediately. Even if your divorce were final, I'd say the same. 2 weeks and 3 dates? How well exactly do you *think* you know him? Or he knows you? What's the rush? Just coming out of a relationship, slow down, take your time, learn from previous mistakes, build something, grow. If you only want to see him, fine. What gives you the right to demand that he do the same? I see this a lot, here and IRL. It usually leads right back to the person who does this being in the same position again a few months or years down the road. Is that really what you want?
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 3 (view)
 
Relationship prospects
Posted: 1/24/2013 10:36:17 PM
Nope. Never. I don't look at it at all. If I like what I read and see, I'll reply- or more likely, send you the first message. I know what I'm looking for, I'm not convinced anyone else has a clue-especially an algorithm. Computational mistakes happen. *Laughing*
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 16 (view)
 
Plain and boring..
Posted: 1/24/2013 10:27:13 PM
["quote]But I'd also like to know how do you keep them interested later? Do those old fascinations develop into further stages and keep people interested or do you pick up new hobbies or..? I get a feeling I know the answer

One day at a time, one adventure at a time, one conversation at a time. One story or question leads to a tangent that leads to a tangent, that leads to a tangent... ad infinium. Just make sure that you do the same for her. Take an interest in her as well, her thoughts, her stories, her adventures, her tangents. It's about both of you, not just one. Balance and communication are the biggest keys. You received a lot of good advice from the previous posters. Put it to work. Best of luck to you!
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 17 (view)
 
Feelings for a friend
Posted: 1/23/2013 12:32:58 AM
Thank you Xray! The key to successfully living in a different culture is to really learn about it and try to understand and accept even when you don't agree. I consider your words a compliment that I have managed to do so.


But that's what I love about my friend is that by Mormon standards she's raunchy. I don't have to constantly monitor my words or actions.


I had forgotten that you mentioned both of you having military backgrounds- which perfectly explains this! Don't come to Utah, you probably really wouldn't like it. Stick with what you have, you'll be happier.

As Helen asked, please do let us know how things go!
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 4 (view)
 
straight men meeting women at gay bars? good/bad idea?
Posted: 1/22/2013 10:43:18 PM
Urg. I wouldn't do that if I were you. Years ago, I used to hang out sometimes with my gay friends at this wonderful little place in DuPont Circle...

Scenario: Gay guy brings his straight girl friend to the gay bar. Chances are VERY high he brought her there for: fun, dancing, drinks, to get away from all the straight jerks she deals with regularly. He'll watch her back. Hard. Straight guy messes with her in a way she doesn't like (or sometimes in a way she doesn't really mind or notice) and he (and his friends) will usually put a stop to it. Quickly. In my case, often before I noticed. In the case of my lesbian friends, it was even faster, no one who wasn't on their "approved" list could even get near me- male or female, especially when I was pregnant. Same basic thing STILL happens with my attached female straight friend who goes to the gay bar with her gay male best friend to dance and destress. Let's just say that our gay friends are somewhat protective.

IME, the bisexual girls usually take care of themselves, but they always had backup if you couldn't or wouldn't take no for an answer. In the case of the places I used to go, management would toss out a straight no questions asked if there was a complaint by a regular. From talking to my friends, not a whole lot has changed.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 55 (view)
 
Never the right Chemistry
Posted: 1/21/2013 4:03:20 AM
This:

I was just thinking about this last week, about the FRIEND ZONE, and I do not know, or how other people handle the friend zone,lol, but I came to a realization, I have had sex with most all the women in my friend zone, and really if I perused almost any of them, I am almost sure we would start a relationship(even in some cases where they are in a relationship)...We still remain friends, some I know found me attractive right away, some like a fine wine, learned to appreciated me ,lol, but our friendship never changed with sex...When you have people in your life you can communicate to, and understand you to a point, genuinely listen, and you gel well, over time, how can you not connect...Point Im trying to horribly make,lol, is, the friend zone is a great place to be in, it is just the timing that puts you there...


I would have worded it differently, but it's a valid point. There is something to be said for bringing a friend into your sexual/romantic relationship zone. Unfortunately, it's something I don't know of anyone who can tell you how to do. It DOES happen, and can create a very strong lifetime bond. I've seen it in others, and done it myself, more than once. I have two of these, and am looking for a potential third.

What's your learning style? Are you more aural, visual, tactile (I forget the other three)? It makes a difference in how you react when meeting someone new. It also makes a difference in how they react to you.

About chemistry.... It typically starts visually, with many different cues that you don't consciously register. When meeting for the first time, it also has a lot to do with pheromone interactions, some will make one more receptive, others, less so. Then, there are the mental, emotional and sexual hooks that will tie into the pheromone interaction making it stronger or weaker.


The men who women want to sleep with have plenty of money,Good looking and drive a fancy car.Can be very nice geniune people or complete Arseholes and it would make no difference to most women.
Thats how i see it.
Can anyone prove me wrong eg???


Not all the men by a long shot. Money comes and goes, good looking is subjective, and cars? Really? Give at least a few of us women a little credit for substance in addition to our superficial desires. Everybody has wants, needs are something different.

Prove you wrong. Okay. He's a school teacher. She's a secretary. They've been deliriously happy and together for more years than I can count. Next up. He works in a manufactory, she's the cook in a nursing home. Again, so happy it's occasionally sickening. Guess what neither of these couples has? Money, looks (both guys are very average, girls a little higher) or cars. Guess what they DO have. Friendship, respect, love, compatibility... just to name a few.

Thinking about it. I can prove you right I suppose as well (well, maybe). He's an anesthesiologist. She's a composer/arranger/musician. Frank Lloyd Wright house, cars I'm not even sure what are, don't get me started on the money-he inherited a lot on top of what he makes. She's definitely a 10 (tall, blonde, curvy in the right places), he's so-so, tall is about all he has going for him. And, yes, again, they are delirious and often sickening to the point that friends and family both tell them to go get a room on a regular basis. Same list of DO have though.

And every one of those guys treats his wife very well... every one of those girls treats her husband very well. Care to guess which ones were friends first?
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 14 (view)
 
Feelings for a friend
Posted: 1/21/2013 2:23:14 AM
It's okay. Most people don't. It does make things more interesting. From what I've been exposed to, his ideal window is opening now and won't last more than about two months. If they haven't come to an understanding by then, she will be strongly encouraged to find someone else quickly. Like most other churches, they like people to be married. Unlike most churches, sometimes they get a bit pushy about it.

Asking her out is actually the easy part. Call her up and ask her to dinner in a restaurant. And talk to her about what he's thinking and feeling, listen to what she says, and reach some sort of understanding of what they have and where they want it to go. Should they not reach an understanding to move the current relationship forward toward a potential marriage, they will be expected to remain friendly, within the allowed limits of the church- at least at church and church functions.

FTR, I did spend the evening with some Mormon friends tonight, we discussed this particular thread. They agreed with what I have and am now posting.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 13 (view)
 
Feelings for a friend
Posted: 1/20/2013 3:42:44 PM
Cultural thing here. The Mormon church has rules about gender mixing. It's strongly discouraged under most circumstances. If it's happening, there is a certain expectation of what will follow and how- and that's without any sexual involvement. Adding in any sexual involvement other than a few hugs and kisses between a "couple", and you're suddenly dealing with a whole new ball of wax. Within the church, there is a price to pay for that. Also, it is expected within the church that a single woman will be helped out and taken care of to a certain extent by members of her congregation. Usually they are married couples doing the helping, when it's not, there is a tacit understanding that the single guy will stick around and will eventually marry her. There's a saying in the church about 6 months being too soon and 6 years means there's something wrong with that person.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 11 (view)
 
Feelings for a friend
Posted: 1/20/2013 1:47:42 PM
What Helen said, exactly.

The Mormon culture tends to have strong views on this. There is also a good chance that some of the pulling back was directly related to pressure or direction of her ward leaders. They (as a general rule) do have a tendency to keep an eye on people in these situations (getting, but not yet divorced), and will have discussions with the party if they think something is becoming inappropriate.

OP- as far as cookie cutter Mormons, or the archetype, come to Utah. IME, active Mormons outside of Utah are far better people, and examples of what their religion "should" be than the ones who I see daily living here, generally speaking. Zion isn't all it's cracked up to be, they are still people, and many because of the proximity of the Church, play holier than thou simply because they are members and I am not... yet regularly commit various "sins" that I would never consider. It's something to think about. My personal opinion is that you take each day one at a time, following to the best of your ability your plan, you do the best you can and you be the best person you can be. It all comes out in the wash.

I still stand by asking her out and talking with her about it. How will you know if you don't? Most of the divorced Mormon women I know were remarried within a year or so to someone that they developed exactly the kind of relationship you are describing you have- while they were waiting for the divorce to become final. If marriage, especially in the temple is your goal, this IS your opportunity for someone who appears to match you well on many levels.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 6 (view)
 
Feelings for a friend
Posted: 1/19/2013 5:04:09 PM
For the responders, have you ever dated an active Mormon girl? I ask because I live in the heart of Mormonville, I've had years to observe. From those observations, my advice to the OP is very different. If both of you are active and in the same ward, ask her out, tell her what you're thinking and feeling. Discuss it. Most of the active Mormon girls around here DO find their boyfriends and husbands this way. I can personally count hundreds of examples of this behavior. It's normal within that religious culture. So, OP- Go for it, and good luck.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 5 (view)
 
Should I let an 8 year difference be a factor?
Posted: 1/18/2013 10:53:21 PM
The guy I'm currently seeing is about 7 years older than me. We relate well. My Mama can't wait for me to get to the point where I'm ready to take him home. She thinks the age difference is good for me. Then again, she might just want to see who might be able to tame her wild heathen child. *smiling*
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 12 (view)
 
Turned off by serious questions?
Posted: 1/18/2013 12:47:31 AM
It depends on the question and what I *think* I know about the person asking it. After looking at your profile... the questions you've listed would be a offputting. You're 26, looking for a hang out and not a relationship or commitment. Your profile is a bunch of nonsense letters with no information. I supposed Phd/post doctoral degree, that she most likely doesn't know what is in. Exactly what have you given a woman to work with? Not much, so, yeah, turned off and weirded out.

I get being bored by small talk, but it is what you make it. Small talk is basically a way to find some common ground so that one of you goes off onto a tangent that leads to another, that leads to another... If one of you can communicate well. It's a start to getting to know each other that often leads to the answers to the questions you've mentioned- without ever having to ask those questions. Bluntly starting with those questions do make you sound desperate IMO. If traditional small talk truly bores you that much, then come up with a different list of questions, or try a discussion of existential philosophy instead.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 43 (view)
 
security tips
Posted: 1/17/2013 11:05:32 PM
This thread is getting a bit off topic. As I recall, the OP posted she had a very bad experience and asked what others do that helps them avoid having them. I gave mine, and stand by what I posted, WITH the understanding that others will disagree. I don't advocate anyone taking any measures that they personally are not comfortable with. Your life=your choices, my life=my choices.

However, TraveliciousGuy, I'll bite:



Why would a woman who can take care of herself have to involve her friends in her dating activities?


It's a choice I make. I inform one of my children and the best friend, up to a point.

The children's reasoning is that mom and dad required a certain amount of information, especially when they began dating someone new, and turnabout is fair play. I don't keep secrets from them, and they don't me. Two way street.

The best friend is a bit different, has known me longer than the children have been alive, and remembers the days when my life required that I have bodyguards. He has always seen me as cute, sweet, innocent, and naive, and despite all evidence to the contrary probably will always do so. Hell, at one point in time, he was my pistol trainer, and a d@mned good one at that- merciless. He's also a player and knows all the various kicks and tricks. He thinks, since the ex never did, it's his job to protect me. Yet, he remembers the past, and like any good friend, he worries. So, we compromise. I let him screen everything (and he does a good job IMO), and he doesn't attempt to fit me for a gilded cage that won't fit me-something he's tried in the past (no, not his, someone else's). It's never been longer than a meet plus a date before he butts out and lets me do my own thing, for good or ill.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 37 (view)
 
security tips
Posted: 1/16/2013 7:13:21 AM
Another assumption. *laughing* I neither have nor need those things. There are other segments of the population that take personal security very seriously.... like law enforcement and military, just to name two.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 32 (view)
 
Needs the approval of friends before being in a relationship
Posted: 1/16/2013 12:17:24 AM
The approval of friends and family isn't necessary for me, but you will have to get through the best friend's BS meter to meet me. He's a bit of a player, okay, a lot of one. *laughing* He's been around for a long time and knows me and what I'm looking for very well. He's also put the pieces of my broken heart back together, and would really prefer to spend his time chasing the "flavor of the month" than doing that again. Something about preventative maintenance... Once you get past his meter, he stays out of it, he's a smart man.
 RJHistoryGirl
Joined: 11/15/2012
Msg: 9 (view)
 
Where are the men who want a new family?
Posted: 1/15/2013 11:46:03 PM
If that's really what you're looking for, I know several divorced 40ish men IRL who would love to start another family. They come with deal breakers that no one I know would put up with. Like divorced, deadbeat (no job and not paying the current child support), 5-6 kids already that live halfway across the country that they never see- and don't want to. They live in some weird sort of fantasyland where everything will be perfect if they can just immediately jump into another marriage and have the new wife pumping out babies. Oh, and since most of them haven't held a job in god only knows how long, you'll also have to support him while doing so. *blech*

These guys show up regularly at the places where I volunteer... welcome to the other side of Utah.
 
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