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 Author Thread: Tall Dark and Handsome means what to you?
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 10 (view)
Tall Dark and Handsome means what to you?
Posted: 3/2/2012 2:59:26 PM
It appears that the phrase --as it's traditionally used-- doesn't apply to the majority of the world's people. :>)

Sort of reminds me of "how people in the U.S. and Europe" label those below the Equator as being "exotic."

Who do those below the Equator see as "exotic?" Yeah, you all. :>)
Hence, the interpretation of the "thread starter" and "exotic"...depends on where you are and who/what you are. :>)

It's all relative...and therefore not a fact.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 12 (view)
Death of Free Internet is Imminent
Posted: 7/22/2008 5:11:53 AM
Interesting exchanges regarding this topic:
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 6 (view)
New suggestions to the site and profiles
Posted: 7/18/2008 4:38:55 PM
In addition to "who viewed me," can you include 1) number of views and date viewed?
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 95 (view)
Why aRe MORE Black Women Against Interracial RELATIONSHIPS?
Posted: 3/28/2008 12:39:28 AM
treekneegirl: I think Caucasian men are really great guys! I dated one for five years and for the most part never regretted it. I am West Indian and found the difference is that caucasian men treat you with respect, value you as a person and are ROMANTIC!!!

Jordanmardan: Have you dated other men in order to make such a comparison?

Wasn't it white men who conquered India at one point?!
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 84 (view)
Why aRe MORE Black Women Against Interracial RELATIONSHIPS?
Posted: 1/14/2008 11:53:20 PM
Are "dirty looks" more powerful than behaviors/practices that are designed to keep members of different groups apart?!

For example, a nightclub here in Lexington a few years ago switched to a country music format because "too many Blacks were frequenting the club."
(of course, some Blacks do listen to country, but not near as many do as pop music, which the club played for most of its existence)

In Michigan, a white hate group burned a cross on the lawn of an inter-ethnic couple.(of course, there's a ton of this type of intimidation reported yearly)

People of differing ethnicities are more likely to date/marry when they live, work, or engage in leisure activities in close proximity to one another.

What other mechanisms exist to keep people of different classes and/or ethnicities apart?
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 83 (view)
Why aRe MORE Black Women Against Interracial RELATIONSHIPS?
Posted: 1/14/2008 11:40:56 PM
On the CBS Evening News in November, there was a report conveying " as Black women move into higher paying jobs, they began to date 'interracially.' "

That's ridiculous. Are there not any whites, etc., in lower-paying jobs?! Duh!

mind: Jordan and Ralph......leave the Italians out of here, ok?

Jordan: I didn't bring up Italians...Ralph did...and I replied to it.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 82 (view)
Why aRe MORE Black Women Against Interracial RELATIONSHIPS?
Posted: 1/14/2008 11:34:13 PM
starfun7: Instead of putting all our efforts in making excuses why we cant succeed (re: that whole paragraph quoted above) lets put that same effort in giving reasons why we should work harder to succeed.

Jordan: To interpret my paragraph as an "excuse why we can't succeed" nothing but ph_ _ cking bullshit.

If any one of us believed that, then why do so many many of us enroll in college and graduate?
Why would I be working on two masters?!

The items in that paragraph represent barriers or obstacles (both terms mean the same thing) that are being addressed by social justice activists or agencies like Human Rights Commissions or the EEOC.

And what in the hell does "excuses why we can't succeed" have to do with "distorted research methods (use of "race" as a research variable, meaning "race" explains the differences); over-reporting Black and Latino pathology while under-reporting white and Asian pathology; gerrymandering; directing/steering People of Color with excellent credit histories to the sub-prime loans market; not calling for a job interview people with Black-sounding names; having low expectations for some students and thus don't push them to achieve at a higher level; disparate sentences for whites and People of Color committing the same crime...despite having similar criminal backgrounds and/or lawyers with comparable skills; disproportionate placement of Children of Color into the foster care system?!"

Not one damn thing.
You've been listening to too much talk radio.

Did a white conservative "friend" of yours coerce you into taking such a stand?!

starfun7: Our role models are those very ones leading us astray. We were here before the Italians, Irish, Chinese, Mexicans etc etc...!! and they were all discriminated against but worked harder to suceed.

Jordan: Really?
As I wrote earlier, Asian Americans arrived here under selective immigration laws that only allowed the "cream of the crop" of their countries to come to the US between 1882 and 1965.
That's one reason Asian Americans as a group are doing better than even white people.
It would be ridiculous to compare/contrast ALL Blacks with a group where only the "cream of the crop" could immigrate to America for most of their existence in this country. (and, of course, it wouldn't even be fair to compare them with whites).

NONE OF THE OTHER GROUPS YOU MENTIONED HAD TO start with slavery, battle Jim Crow, desegregation, etc., etc., etc.
However, they have and do benefit from the gains of the Civil Rights Movement.

Among the groups you named, which of them have a system of colleges parallel to the Historical Black Colleges and Universities?! (HBCUs)

And if "race" isn't an issue, why would Obama have to request additional protection from the Secret Service?
There's a barrier that's requires more of our tax money to address.

Racial ignorance requires a lot of tax money to enforce the civil rights laws, money that could be going towards other purposes.

Jordan Mardan
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 78 (view)
Colour versus Black and White
Posted: 12/21/2007 1:34:58 AM
ralph: Well, I certainly am not one to be aware of particular posters that carry a big chip on their shoulder and attempt to see a world filled with color in black and white terms ;)

Jordan: Tell that to those whose actions resulted in presidential candidate Barack Obama having to request more security due to racist threats he received.

Tell that to the families of the 2 white teens who attacked a Latino male in Texas during an attack that lasted 5 hours: stabbed repeatedly, beaten, and poured bleach on him in an attempt to destroy DNA evidence.

Tell that to the family of the Black woman in W. Virginia that was kidnapped, tortured, raped repeatedly, forced to eat rat, dog, and human feces, and forced to kiss/lick the genitals of the 6 whites (males and females) who kept her locked up for over a week.

Your own words prove my point: "whatever seems the most likely to be hurtful" ...The criticizers dig down deep to express something to hurt others.

ralph: Or maybe they are social creatures and have been socialized to believe such expressions will cause hurt.

Jordan: Humans ARE social creatures.
Despite your paragraph, why else say something like that if the intent is not to cause pain, hurt, etc.?

ralph: People that are "angry, excited, or drunk" or certifiably insane are not digging "down deep" to make whatever comments they make. They are simply drawing on superficial social conditioning. In effect, the conclusion to draw is the opposite of that made by some posters here.

Jordan: What I meant by that comment is that those types of comments are *usually* not on the "tips of the tongues."

ralph: Or maybe the person is simply insane. Let's try using this reasoning on another example. Say a person was an athiest all his/her life but ends up in a long-term care facility with an inoperable brain tumor and starts "spewing" his/her love of Allah and quoting the Koran day and night. Is this new behavior evidence of deeply seated religious beliefs that had been suppressed? Maybe the better answer, and the answer this person's friends would likely offer, is that he/she has lost his/her mind. Does the class follow?

Jordan: I still say "the person has lost the ability to suppress racist beliefs, which is different from "evidence of suppressed beliefs."
Someone doesn't start quoting information that they never knew before.

How is a person going to start quoting from the Koran, if he/she has never read or studied the Koran, etc.?!
That doesn't make sense. You're over-reaching, badly.

ralph: Like I said, eh? You really don't know a lot of Italians, do you?

Jordan: When I write the term whites, I'm NOT referring to each and every white person. I know a lot of "white" anti-racist social justice activists.

When I use the term I'm referring to an "overwhelming majority."
Hence, Italians are a very small percentage of the total number of whites in amerikkka.

raplh: Well, that's a nice Chumpsky-ish response. Maybe it is the case that "most" of this collection of persons are simply not racists? Making an assertion as quoted might work on readers that want to believe but it doesn't convince anybody. Where is the evidence?

Jordan: Where is your evidence that they are not racist?!
You don't have any.

However, I can post tons of surveys about "whites' attitudes/beliefs regarding 'race.' "
Or I could post stats showing the number of hate crimes committed by whites against African-/Asian-/Latino-/ and "Native"-Americans.

I could post the stats of cases involving employment discrimination, etc.
And tons and tons of other stuff that would obliterate your comments.
There's no way that a small group of people could be carrying out ALL those acts from coast to coast.....from Florida to Maine , Michigan to Texas, California to Washington state.

ralph: The expressions of "angry, excited, or drunk" or certifiably insane people constitutes evidence? To support this contention, it is suggested that we look at the behavior of "angry, excited, or drunk" or certifiably insane people, that might be identifiable with that spurious group, to find the desired evidence.

Jordan: Your flawed argument is rooted in how you are categorizing "angry, excited, drunk, or insane people" if those labels are their primary identification.

They are NOT a "spurious" group. They are everyday americans, your neighbors, your co-workers, etc., who when imbibing make slips of the tongue.

prior Jordan...the idea that everyone was equally prejudiced or racist... No way.....because you cannot generate the same disparities in my preceding paragraph for whites.

raplh: While I am tempted to complain about that typically American worldview that seems to be oblivious to the world beyond their borders,

Jordan: Racism and other isms are pervasive around the globe.
And all one has to do is look at the condition of various minority groups in Canada, Europe, Far East, etc.
Wasn't there sort of an uprising in France last year, regarding the marginalization of various immigrants populations?!

I don't know why you'd write something like that when I could easily go to google and find thousands of examples to the contrary.

ralph: it is perhaps more useful to note the internal limitation of this sort of thinking. It might be feasible to argue that some "whites" have power in the social structure of the USA, it is unreasonable and counter-productive to assert that all "whites" have power.

Jordan: I have NEVER written or implied that "all whites have power." I know that.

ralph: In a sense, doing so merely encourages a false sense of identification and produces false conflicts. Poor "whites" have much more in common with poor "blacks" than either group could ever have in common with rich "whites". That even goes for me and somebody like Jordan Mardan. I have much less in common with Bill Gates ;)

Jordan: I agree with that, for I've often written in othe forums, but have expanded it to inlcude members of the huge white middle class, too.
These people have nothing in common with those whites who can afford to sail around the world with a crew of 30 for 5 or 6 months...year after year after year.

Because their wealth doesn't come from wages and salaries. It comes from profits through ownership, investments, etc. Hence, I have to seriously wonder why the white middle class keeps voting people from that group into political office.
Remember when it was disclosed that presidential contender John Edwards spends $400 for a haircut?!
How many people in the white middle class could afford to do that every 2 weeks or however often they get their hair cut?!

However, the point you appear to be oblivious to is that fact that rich whites and the poor and middle classes of whites work as a team to keep other groups down.
For example, the leaders of various white supremacist groups in the US are typically wealthy and educated.

However, the rank and file membership are usually poor or of the working class, with a few middle class members.
The poor whites do the bidding of the wealthy whites.
In the South, and states like Michigan, Indiana, etc., many klan members held political offices in the past through a political machine known as the "white conservative citizen councils."
Senator Trent Lott was accused about 4 or 5 years ago of having been a member of such a council. So they still exist to some extent.
As I understand it, there's a klan here in Lexington madeup of white businessmen.

ralph: If someone opts to frame social conflicts on the basis of something as arbitrary as skin color, they are simply playing along with a mindset that seeks to deflect discussion of underlying conflicts with artificially created conflicts. I have little sympathy for claims that the core conflict in someplace like the USA is the color of a person's skin.

Jordan: If you're right, then why do many people continue to quote the words of the great sociologist W. E. B. Dubois: "The problem of the 20th century is the color line?"

ralph: That is not to suggest that such characteristics are always overlooked. I am simply emphasizing that this is not a fundemental issue.

Jordan: The fundamental issues are access to opportunities and valued resources (jobs.
However, it just so happens that "access to opportunities" in America in the past and still today are usually based on "race" or color.
But you have to remember that at various times members of Asian groups were considered to be white, and other times not white.

Back in 2004 in a debate between President Bush and his challenger John Kerry, the democratic nominee, a question about discrimination was asked of the two.
Now obviously, if discrimiantion is NOT a major issue, as some of you contend, why was such a question asked in a nationally televised presidential debate?!

Back to the point. Kerry answered by talking about better enforcement of the policies, etc. while Pres. Bush said, "We've got to find ways to open up opportunities for all Americans."

I suggest you read "American Ethnicity: The Dynamics and Consequences of Discrimination," 2nd edition, by Adalberto Aguiire, Jr., and Jonathan H. Turner.

The 280-page book examines the history of discrimination in America against People of Color (African-/Asian-/Latino-/ and "Native"-Americans, and the discrimination experienced by the various European ethnic groups untik they were assimilated in mainstream society.

It also contains a chapter titled "American Ethnic Relations in a Global Perspective."
I don't believe in "race," I generally use the term "ethnicity," and that's what the authors of the book use.
And please don't ask me a stupid question like "if race doesn't exist, how can racism exist?" The simple answer is "Those who *believe* in race are the ones who socially construct race. It's a social construction, not a biological designation.

They start out by telling about the various forms of ethnic conflict around the world: Yugoslavia's Muslim Bosnians and Serbians; in what used to be Czechoslovakia is now two nations divided by their perceived ethnic differences; Canada's French-speaking v. the English-speaking; the Palestinians and the Israelis, and so on.

They define ethnicity as "a population with unique organizational, behavioral, and cultural characteristics who have a shared historical experience, as well as religion, family practices, interpersonal style, language, beliefs, values, and other traits that are used to demark one population from another.
The more visible the characteristics marking ethncity, the more likely it is that those in an ethnic category will be treated differently."

Hence, we can see why color and other physical differences have been used to determine "who is in and who is out."
Back to the book: "When someone is labeled "black," more than skin color is involved; whole clusters of assumptions about historical experiences, behavior, organization, and culture are associated with this label. The same is true for labels such as 'white,' 'Asian,' 'Mexican,' 'Jew,' and 'Indian.'

In fact, as we will come to see, labels are often self-fulfilling in creating and sustaining ethnicity. If people are given a label because of their skin color and then discriminated against as if they were different, they will react to such treatment by behaving and organizing in ways that are indeed distinctive.

Once behavioral and organizational differences exist and are elaborated culturally into norms, beliefs, and other systems of symbols, they become an additional marker of differences, both 'justifying' the earlier label and the distinctive treatment of these others are somehow 'different.
So, if biological distinctiveness can become part of the label for denoting populations, then biology becomes an aspect of the social dynamics producing and sustaining ethnicity. Indeed, racial labels are like turbochargers in ethnic relations: They escalate the heat and power of emotions and tensions."(end)

I included that from the book to support my statement about "the color line."
It's not just color, but the meanings attached to the color and other physical characteristics.
And that's another reason why I don't susbcribe to being "colorblind." It's not the color but the meaning. And there's no way you could not see someone's color, etc....unless you were blind. And if you were blind, what would you think about if the person standing in front of you was identified as "Black" or whatever other label?!
What would come to mind?!

And by the way, there's a whole other thread about my belief that "race is an illusion."
So I was already referring to "arbitrariness" long before you began using it here.
Read it.

ralph: I have recently been introduced to a working class workplace where the ethnic composition varies tremendously and yet there seems to be high praise from all around and cooperation abounds. There are new immigrants from around the world, even a few Americans -- and a Newfoundlander. People can and do laugh about all the stereotypes out there when in an environment where such stereotypes are not encouraged or given serious consideration -- much less tolerated.

Jordan: That's great!!!!
But too bad such places are sure in the hell NOT the norm.
As with Italians, why do you keep citing exceptions to the if they somehow invalidate the norms or overwhelmng majorities I'm referring to?!
They don't.
However, I would like to know just who those ethnicities are.

prior Jordan: The comments made by whites are NOT an "expression of envy," but an expression of anger that those two people dared to " 'violate' " a social norm.

ralph: Here we go again. The original post mentioned "black" women and "white" men. Maybe the real bias is a person's socialized sensitivities and consequent notation of specific objections rather than the general reality surrounding the person?

Jordan: "Interesting."
You excluded my quote from its total context, and then proceeded to create something unrelated to what I wrote.
So I'm not going to address that until you go back and read the other sentences that go along with that quote.

ralph: If you were to ask me, I'd say that "black" men and "white" women tend to be the most objecting to an interracial coupling. Now, is that true or is it just that those are the objections I'm looking for? I know for a fact that I've had positive comments by plausible members of both of these arbitrarily assigned groups too. Others point to yet more arbitary groups.

Jordan: Within each of those labels ("Black" men/"white" women) there are a host of differences mitigated by socio-economic class, educational attainment, geographical location, etc., etc., etc. that makes it quite ridiculous to use racial labels, which have been used by whites, the dominant group in America for research categories, which make it appear that everyone under that label is all the same.

Of course, having written that I expect for you to ask, "well, why do you use the term white?"
And my reply would be, "I'm not referring to each and every white person, but instead an overwhelming majority."

ralph: Originally posted by tryster771 ...95% of whites are genuinely fair and color-blind. Very much agreed. If you ask me, that is true of all ethnic groups, all over the world. Even where you find substantial intolerance, even institutionalized intolerance, the chances are most of the people do not accept it at a personal level. I guess the world would be a better place if there was an easy way to project that often found personal sentiment onto society as a whole.

Jordan: Research shows substantially otherwise.
There is no way that only 5% of the white population could carry out all the forms of discrimination experienced in all 50 states.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 77 (view)
Posted: 12/20/2007 11:02:35 PM
ralph: You don't know a lot of Italians do you?

Jordan: So one group of whites invalidates my statement?!

After a group of 130 Hispanic parents wrote a letter to our local paper raising concerns for their children's safety, a slew of vitriolic comments were posted to the paper's website, thereby proving once again how wrong Ralph is.

Sorry for the delayed response, but the last 3 weeks of this semester were pretty busy.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 63 (view)
Why aRe MORE Black Women Against Interracial RELATIONSHIPS?
Posted: 12/1/2007 1:07:24 PM
treadstone: Well Mr JordanMorgan, I just realised that ALL your posts here on PoF is about racism - black and white! I dont understand why you have so much anger in your heart. So far i like the back-and-forth banter between you and Ralph...
No one is denying that it exists but RACISM is experienced by all other races.

Jordan: Researching, examining, and discussing racism has nothing to do with "anger in my heart."
Do all the employees of Human Rights Commissions and EEOCs across the country have "anger in their hearts" because they deal with racism on a daily basis?!

Two, it's simply untrue that all my messages have to do with just "Black and white," for I've frequently used the term People of Color...which is short for "African-/Asian-/Latino-/ and "Native" Americans.
So you're wrong there, too.

treadstone: What I find interesting that so far is that you have never blamed anything on the actions and choices we as blacks make.

Jordan: I have NEVER written that "ALL the problems encountered by Blacks can be blamed on whites' racism."
If I had written such a statement, then your sentence would be correct.

The topics I have posted on had to do with racism, not dead-beat dads, gangs, selling drugs, or whatever.
So're wrong.

If anyone starts a thread on those issues, then you will see another type of response from me.
But don't create red herrings and then proceed to answer them. Not going to let you get away with that.

treadstone: Lets call a spade and spade and teach our young ones the benefits of hard work, law abiding, dedication, sacrifices, education etc and STOP promoting the idea of "failure is acceptable because of racism"!!

Jordan: That's ridiculous....and here's why.
Even Blacks who have done all those things (worked hard, got a college degree, made sacrifices, abide by the law, etc.)....have still faced racism.

Take Asian Americans for example, even though they have the highest GPAs in colleges throughout the nation, guess what, they still encounter discrimination in employment, etc.
So don't give me that crap about how "working hard, abiding by the law, etc"....eliminates the chances that one will experience racism.
Google "bamboo ceiling"...and see what you get.

The overwhelming majority of discrimination lawsuits filed by Blacks in America....are filed by hard working/abides by the law/makes scarifices/college-educated Black people....NOT the bums standing out there on the street corners selling drugs all day and night.'re wrong.

treadstone: I, as a black man, Im very tired of hearing RACISM being used as an excuse all the time. A statement like this is an absolute crock. Commonsense should tell us that if this statement is valid, then we should stay away from commiting crime. PERIOD. Why dont you preach that!

Jordan: Anybody reading such a comment would have to laugh.
We're all supposed to be equal before the law.
Two, whatever I write can be supported by a number of research studies on "racsim and the the judicial system."

As I wrote above, I have NOT "used racism as an excuse" for everything, for we have NOT discussed everything on this site.

You're conflating two different issues.

treadstone:I absolutely agree with tryster77 that 95% (if not more) of caucasians and other non-blacks are color-blind.

Jordan: There's absolutely no way that a person can look at another and not see what color he/she is.
Only a person that is blind can do that.


For example, why do most whites b-e-l-i-e-v-e that:
-- most welfare recipients are Blacks?
--most Blacks are athletically-inclined?
--most drug dealers/drug users are Black?

Because that's what they've learned in the media, which includes textbooks, novels, movies, radio shows, TV shows, newspapers, etc....anything capable of disseminating a message to the masses of people is media.

In fact, only about 4% of all Blacks are athletically inclined.
Whites makeup about 68% of those receiving welfare.

The average drug user/seller in America is white...not Black, not Latino, not Asian, not "Native" American...but white.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 62 (view)
Why aRe MORE Black Women Against Interracial RELATIONSHIPS?
Posted: 12/1/2007 12:24:58 PM
Response to tryster's colorblind comments:
What Kind of White Person Are You?

Written by Jeff Hitchcock ("white" male)
Posted: April, 1999

People of Color may rightly excuse themselves from answering this question. Obviously it’s intended for white folks. When it comes to how one thinks and feels about race relations, most white people believe there are two choices. Either you’re racist or you’re colorblind. Individuals did not create these choices. Nor did organizations like the Center, or even larger organizations like the government. These choices exist as part of our culture itself. Society provides us two models of how to be white.

There are many ways to define a "racist." Some would say society itself is racist, giving all white people racial privileges and hence making them "racists" whether they like it or not. But most white people use the term racist, at least insofar as it applies to white people, to mean a person who consciously identifies as white, understands it to be his or her native culture, and believes that white people are superior to people of color. According to these terms, nearly all white people used to be racist, and even today it’s hardly uncommon to find white people who still are.

The second model for white people is colorblindness. Colorblindness says that race shouldn’t make a difference in people’s lives, and since it shouldn’t, we should all act as if race doesn’t matter. Because race doesn’t matter (or at least shouldn’t matter), we don’t need to mention it at all. In fact mentioning race just creates problems. Thus white people who follow the colorblind model do not particularly see themselves as white in other than a superficial way.

They know which box to check on census forms, but do not believe the status of being white has an effect on their lives. If racists are racially conscious, colorblind people might be said to be racially unconscious.

Racist or colorblind. Most of us are taught one or the other. Mainstream society certainly favors the colorblind side. Conventional wisdom says to be colorblind is good. To be racist is bad. Were those the only two choices, then we might agree. But there’s a third choice at hand.

It’s not a choice that many white people make, or even know exists. White people can consciously identify as white, understand it to be our native culture, and believe – and here is the crux of the matter -- that while white people are no better or worse than people of color at heart, we hold an unjustly privileged and dominant position in a racial hierarchy. This model is new, only about 40 years old, compared to 100 years for colorblindness and 400 years for plain old fashioned racism.

It’s so new, people haven’t agreed on a name for it. Variously called color awareness, race savvy, or new white consciousness, it nonetheless is a real alternative to the older models.

Racist white people believe colorblind white people are deluded to think that being white is not important. Alternately fearing the pervasiveness of colorblindness and bemoaning its refusal to acknowledge white culture, racists hope someday colorblind people will believe once again their interest lies in being overtly racist.

Racist white people have a more difficult time with race savvy whites who know race does matter and being white makes a difference. Race savvy whites do not shy away from discussing white identity and culture, but they frame their interests in creating multiracial structures, and working for racial equality, justice and harmony. We emphatically endorse the race savvy model. Able to see the racial structure of society as it is, race savvy white people are the racists’ worst nightmare.

Colorblind white people see racist white people pretty much for what they are, and that "something" is not what colorblind white people want to be. But colorblind white people more often than not are ineffective in working to undo the racist model. Unable to see race, they cannot see racism. Blind to color, they are blind to white culture as well. In a racially structured society they are unable to change a structure they fail to see. Rather, they rely on simplistic rules. To be conscious of race, a colorblind person will say, is to be racist. To the colorblind person the racist and the race savvy person seem to be the same. They both see race after all.

The race savvy white person understands what the colorblind white person does not. Being white makes a difference. Whiteness forms the center of our society and as long as it does, we cannot have a society centered on multiracial values. The irony of colorblindness is that by not seeing whiteness, it keeps whiteness centered. In this the racists might find some small ray of hope.

Race savvy white people are determined not to let that happen. There is and should always be a place for white people in our society, but it should not be one that controls power and resources of the mainstream exclusive of other racial groups. It should not be a place where others are expected, indeed required to come if they want the privileges of the center. Race savvy white people believe we all must change to create a multiracial center. Race savvy white people understand it’s our special role to work with our own people to bring this about.

We ask you once again, what kind of white person are you? Your choices may be a little broader than you imagine.


chocolatebrown: I was attending a****ail party recently, where most of the other attendees were "upper class Caucasians."

Jordan: Does 2 or 3 exceptions to the rule invalidate the rule?
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 57 (view)
Why aRe MORE Black Women Against Interracial RELATIONSHIPS?
Posted: 11/25/2007 5:25:31 PM
tryster771: certainly have a lot to say but unfortunately this topic is not directly about racism.

Jordan: On the contrary, without racism...this topic wouldn't even be a topic....for there would be an equitable pool of available dates for one set of physical characteristics would be valued over another.

Hence, more white men would be dating/marrying Black, etc. women....because they would not be valuing one set of physical characteristics over any other set of traits.

tryster; I am a black lady who set out in life believing that racism is an obstacle NOT a barrier.

Jordan: I don't know why you would write such in reply to my message when my words didn't address such an issue.
As a social justice activist, a "diversity" workshop developer/facilitator, etc., etc., etc., if I viewed racism as an impossible barrier, I wouldn't be doing the things I'm currently engaged in to address racism.

When I personally encounter racism, I either go around it, under it, or through it...and that's what an education allows one to do.
However, if one's choices are limited, then he/she will have more problems dealing with it, as well as sexism, classism, and other isms.

tryster: As such, hard work will definitely be rewarded. Similarly, laziness, drug-dealing, crime, gangs etc etc will be rewarded (punished). Racism is in everyone (race, creed, religion etc etc). Unfortunately we blacks have milked this too much. We blame our atitudes and lifestyle on that. To me that is absolute crock!!!

Jordan: Just like most whites, you need to find a more accurate term to apply to those Blacks engaging in such acts, because the overwhelming majority of us are NOT engaging in such acts.

Two, there are more poor whites in america than there are Blacks, though proportionately speaking, Blacks have a higher rate due to historical discrimination.
For example, approx. 25% of Blacks live in poverty while 15% of whites live in poverty.

Twenty-five percent of about 36 million Blacks is about 9 million.
But 15% of about 180 million whites equals about 27 million poor whites, almost 3 times the number of Blacks.
So I hardly think that Blacks have a monopoly on being poor, using drugs, laziness, gangs, etc.

And what's more, when we do commit crimes...BECAUSE OF RACISM...we're more likely to receive harsher sentences than whites with similar criminal backgrounds and/or lawyers of comparable skills/educational attainment.
So the crock of sh*t is on your side of the fence.

tryster: Our role models are those very ones leading us astray. We were here before the Italians, Irish, Chinese, Mexicans etc etc...!! and they were all discriminated against but worked harder to suceed.

Jordan: Another lie.
When Blacks got out of slavery, they worked very, very hard as sharecroppers, but as we've found out through research, the sharecroppng system was setup to rob Blacks of their labor and harvests.

For example, the interest rate on money borrowed to buy implements, seeds, household goods, etc., were frequently of a usury or exhorbitant rate.....which was NOT charged to white farmers borrowing money from the same banks.

At the conclusion of harvest season, the Black sharecropper was further cheated when he went to sell his crops at the markets. Many studies illustrate how Black farmers would receive far less for their crops than white farmers.

Same or similar levels of energy/effort put forth, but less of a return...based on "race."

Receiving far less than expected, the Black sharecropper would find that he didn't have enough money to pay off his loan and/or to fund the next season's crops. So what resulted was a perpetual state of borrowing money and getting further and further in the hole.

Three, back in the late 1990s, Black farmers finally won a decades-old lawsuit against the USDA regarding the fact that "they were discriminated against by local chapters of agricultural cooperatives that were established to aid farmers in difficult times. The monies were allocated by the federal USDA, but were not allocated fairly to all farmers.
Many Black farmers lost their land while waiting for these payments and the lawsuit to wind it's way through the courts.

And right on up to today's date, they still haven't received the money from this case they won back in the late nineties.
This is one of several examples where Blacks have indeed worked very hard to get ahead...only to have the system of racism serve to detour their efforts or defer their dreams (ever heard of Langston Hughes's "A Dream Deferred?" Probably not, but what we're discussing here is the topic of that famous poem....and don't get me started on the current crisis of sub-prime loans).

Two, Italians and Irish were allowed to become white. End of story.
See Harvard professor Dr. Noel Ignatiev's book "How the Irish Became White."

The Chinese, along with other groups from the Far East had a much different beginning or boost.....than other groups, even whites.

After the building of the transcontinental railroad, the Chinese laborers began to compete for jobs in other areas of the economy.
Soon, poor whites began beating up and/or running the Chinese workers out of town.

The poor whites also began pressuring Congress to pass laws prohibiting the immigration of more Chinese.
This protest resulted in the Chinese Exclusion Acts of 1882.

The legislation held that "only Chinese business persons/merchants, students, teachers, and tourists could immigrate to America."
What's the common denominator among these groups? Wealth and an education.
Hence, only the "cream of the Chinese" were allowed to come to America after 1882.

Eventually, up through 1906, similar laws were passed for the Japanese, Koreans, and Filipinos.
Although these laws were finally repealed in 1942, it wasn't until the passage of the Naturalization and Immigration Act in 1965 that the masses of Asian immigrants were allowed to immigrate to America again. (remember the "Boat People," very poor Asian immigrants that began arriving in the US in the late 60s?!).

Thus, from 1882 through 1965 only the "cream of the crop" of Far Eastern societies were allowed to immigrate to America for nearly 83 years, bringing with them wealth, an education, and skills that they used to replicate the socio-economic status that they had held in their home societies.
Thus, it is stupid to try to compare Blacks with Asian Americans, because their histories are very different.
Proportionally, today, Asian Americans have higher incomes and a higher level of educational attainmment than even white Americans.
Again, only someone under-informed would even attenpt to compare Asian Americans with African-Americans.

If I may digress for a moment, what would happen if a significant percentage of middle- and upper-class Blacks moved to another country?!
Would they re-create the same social position that they held in America?
Yep, it's most likely that they the same way that upper-class Asian immigrants did when arriving here when those Exclusion Laws were in effect.

Now....where are most of the succeeding generations of the people known as the "Boat People?!"
The bulk of them can be found working in the kitchens of Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and/or Korean-owned restuarants, massage parlors, fingernail painting salons, sweatshops, prostitutions/other vice, and businesses within the areas of various chinatowns/Little Manillas/Little Saigons, etc., ....throughout the U.S.
These people are largely hidden from the American public.

As I wrote above, it is historically inaccuarate to make the type of statement that tryster771 attempts when comparing Blacks with "Italians, Irish, Chinese, Mexicans, etc., etc."

The so-called "model minority" was created through *selective immigration laws*...not through the hard work that tryster771 would have us to believe.

And if this so-called "model minority" is disproportionately represented among the highly educated and/or the wealthy, and thus better positioned than even whites themselves, we then see how utterly foolish such a term like "model minority" really is.

It has no other usage but to imply, "If these people did it, then why can't you Blacks?"
And to that I say, "Why can't you whites, since they're doing far better than you all as a group, too?!"
Well, the playing field and beginnings obviously hasn't been level or the same for all groups.
Once it is level, then and only then can we make such comparisons.

tryster771: 95% of whites are genuinely fair and color-blind.

Jordan: I know you CANNOT provide support for such a statement, so I'm not even going to ask you to.

Jordan Mardan
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 51 (view)
Why aRe MORE Black Women Against Interracial RELATIONSHIPS?
Posted: 11/23/2007 9:26:37 AM
cpt fancy pants: I think that the beef between whites and blacks will take longer to heal then any of use can imagine. I wish it was easy to fix but its like every time we take a step further one act of hate takes us back ten. I use to walk the street and get comments from black dudes here and there cause im a big square head German kid with a shaved head, dosnt mean i have racist views. But apparently im suppose to cause of my hair."

Jordan: Of course it will take much more time than most people think because...bullshit movies like the movie Crash ignored institutional racism.

Unlike the *individual* prejudice/racism that cpt points out (Black dudes' comments to him on the streets), those in power express their racism by denial of employment; distorted research methods (use of "race" as a research variable, meaning "race" explains the differences); over-reporting Black and Latino pathology while under-reporting white and Asian pathology; gerrymandering; directing/steering People of Color with excellent credit histories to the sub-prime loans market; not calling for a job interview people with Black-sounding names; having low expectations for some students and thus don't push them to achieve at a higher level; disparate sentences for whites and People of Color committing the same crime...despite having similar criminal backgrounds and/or lawyers with comparable skills; disproportionate placement of Children of Color into the foster care system
and on and on and on.

The movie Crash projected the idea that everyone was equally prejudiced or racist.
No way.....because you cannot generate the same disparities in my preceding paragraph for whites.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 50 (view)
Why aRe MORE Black Women Against Interracial RELATIONSHIPS?
Posted: 11/23/2007 9:08:11 AM
Leanne: Yeah I'd rather hear someone spew out their racist feelings than hide their inner Later I heard that a negative comment ( included the "N" word) was made about my husband - by this so called friend.

Jordan: That's precisely the point I made: middle- and upper-class whites are more
likely to show their a passive or indirect way.
In your case, it was behind your back or out of earshot.

However, I do agree with you regarding "letting the hate come out"...because that way we can either avoid such people or deal with in a dialogue.
That's one of things the book at the conclusion of my message recommends.

My message was addressing the differences between Blacks and whites in expressing their dislike of someone's girl/boyfriend or wife/husband of a different ethnicity: Blacks are more likely to express thier dislike directly while you all do it indirectly.
Of course, there are some exceptions to the rule on both sides.

Is there anyone who can disclose how various Asians, Latino, or Arab groups do so?

Ralph42: Hasn't anyone told you that racial profiling is passe? Not to mention it is incredibly wrong-headed.

Jordan: What we are discussing is "how different groups display their displeasure when seeing two people of different ethnicities dating or married."
Therefore, your comment is irrelevant.

Two, why didn't you express such a sentiment when someone made the comments about Blacks?!
That shows your bias right there. :>)

Ralph42: Anyway, when people get "angry, excited, or drunk" they end up saying and doing a lot of things. Sometimes funny, sometimes mean and sometimes pathetic. It depends on the person and the situation.

Jordan: And one of those situations is: comments about people of two different ethnicities dating or being married." Duh!

Ralph42: To go with the negative possibilities, well, believe it or not, people will draw on whatever seems the most likely to be hurtful in their verbalizations. Taking statements in such a state as evidence of anything more than that person is "angry, excited, or drunk" will lead one to some rather false and skewed perspectives on human beings. The context does matter.

Jordan: Your own words prove my point: "whatever seems the most likely to be hurtful"
The criticizers dig down deep to express something to hurt others.

Two, "taking such statements as evidence of anything more angry, excited, or drunk" will lead one to some rather false and skewed perspectives on human beings" is ridiculous.
Why else express such comments if one isn't trying to be negative and/or influence people to change their behavior in order to satisfy the criticizer?!
These are NOT idle comments.

Ralph42: Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that these expressions of "racial slurs" -- by two guys in a nut house no less -- are somehow evidence of suppressed beliefs? That seems a bit of a stretch, and that is putting it nicely ;)

Jordan: Doesn't make a difference to me *how* you put it.
That particular example is parallel to being "angry, drunk, or excited."
The person has lost the ability to suppress racist beliefs, which is different from "evidence of suppressed beliefs."

Unlike those that blurt something out in a moment of "anger, excitability, or drunkenness," the person with the brain tumor continues on and on and on, persistently saying it on an intermittent basis.

Ralph42: You don't know a lot of Italians do you?

Jordan: I wrote whites.
Upon arriving in amerikkka, members of european ethnic groups usually become white, taking on traits, customs etc. of whites.

Ralph42: Sure... If you're going to be judging people on the basis of their behavior when they are "angry, excited, or drunk" or certifiably insane. If that is your basis of uncovering racism, you might what to seriously rethink your assumptions :o

Jordan: That's the best evidence there is: right out of the horse's mouth.

Ralph42: Maybe others don't see the obvious here but I have to wonder why the focus is on "white" persons.

Jordan: So that's the basis for your comments?!
As long as the focus was on Blacks, you didn't have anything to say, did you?!

If you read any of the preceding messages, you would have saw that my comments were *in response to* other comments about "Blacks expressing this displeasure directly at seeing an inter-ethnic couple."

Ralph42: Most people who are racists will make their feelings known pretty readily. They don't have to be "angry, excited, or drunk" or certifiably insane to do so. At least that's been my experience.

Jordan: The difference lies in the fact that most middle-and upper-class whites bend over backwards to hide their racist beliefs.
But in a moment of anger, excitability, or comes out.

People that consciously identify as being racist...say it ALL the time.
In other words, and going back to my example of the 2 mental patients, most whites are like the guy with the brain tumor, only spewing forth when they've lost control.

People that self-describe as racist...are like the mental patient who says it all the time, whether or not he's having a psychotic episode or during the moments of clarity.
White racists like David Duke, Tom Metzger, or Pierce (wrote the Turner Diaries) say it while drunk or sober, happy or angry, somber or excited.

Ralph42: To be honest though, the post that initiated this thread and many of the responses that followed did not suggest to me racism as much as envy expressed in a manner that was deemed, by the persons in question to be most effective and hurtful. I doubt they had to be "angry, excited, or drunk" or certifiably insane to speak their mindlessness.

Jordan: heh heh heh!!!
There were once laws in this country that prohibited *whites* from dating or marrying people of a different ethnicity.
Members of other groups were free to marry one another...but not whites.

The comments made by whites are NOT an "expression of envy," but an expression of anger that those two people dared to " 'violate' " a social norm.

According to the 2000 census, inter-ethnic marriages increased to 7% of all marriages from just 2% from the 1990 census.

So the practice is still very taboo for most Americans, although most would claim that "I'm not racist." Yeah, right.
I suggest that others and yourself take a look at "Hate Speech," by Rita Kirk Whillock and Donald Slayden, editors.

And by the way, google the Implicit Assumptions test....and take it...and come back and share your a new thread.

Jordan Mardan
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 45 (view)
Why aRe MORE Black Women Against Interracial RELATIONSHIPS?
Posted: 11/21/2007 1:36:59 PM
:Jordan Mardan, you would be SURPRISED at some of the things that I have heard come out of the mouths of "upper class white men and women" if they have had a few drinks too many.....ESPECIALLY about subjects such as interracial relationships, religion, politics, etc..........."

Jordan: No, I wouldn't because.....when whites are angry, excited, or drunk.....their inhibitions are lowered and they lose control...spewing out their hatred.
My words refer to their normal or sober behavior.

Getting drunk may be a norm, but that state of mind occurs less frequently than being sober.

Dan Issel, Michael Richards, Dogg the Bounty Hunter, Mel Gibson, etc.....have all spewed forth racial slurs while angry....they lost control....not their normal pattern of behavior...but obviously these terms were in their matter how much they try to deny it.

I work in a mental hospital PT, and there's 2 people (both elderly white males) that spew forth racial terms.
One has an inoperable brain tumor. He's a very nice guy most of the times, but when he has a psychotic epsiode...whew.....he can spew with the best of them.
[he also claims to be Black at times :>) ]

The other one engages in this type of behavior ALL THE TIME.
He's about 70 or so. I haven't read his file yet, but of the last 8 tmes I worked on his unit, he always said something racist to other Black workers or myself.
I don't have a baseline to compare his behavior to, but talks with co-workers verify that this is his norm.

Hence, I often seek to determine "what is a person's norm" in these types of situations.
Is it there and waiting to be released by anger, excitedness, drunkenness, or loss of mental capacities?!

I believe that's why whites place such great emphasis on controlling their emotions.
Remember the white male presidential candidate that growled, trying to fire up his supporters (Howard Dean), just showing a little feeling?!
Well, that got him booted out the race in 2000.

One last thing:

I know a "white" anti-racism activist that tells the following story:
One of his grandmothers was a long-time anti-racism activist, and during her later years developed Alzheimer's.

According to him, she eventually forgot all her children's and grandchildren's names, but there's one thing she didn't forget: she started calling Black people the n-word....and in the context of her social justice career...that's obviously NOT a norm for her...but was before she died.

Hence, it's rather difficult to sometimes disentangle personal norms and societal norms.

Jordan Mardan
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 43 (view)
Why aRe MORE Black Women Against Interracial RELATIONSHIPS?
Posted: 11/21/2007 12:23:33 PM
"As of this pass weekend I spoke to a friend of mine. She had a POF profile on this system. She is a caucasian woman. Her preference was men of color. She received so many hate emails from black woman that she removed herself from the system.

How many did she receive from white men?
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 42 (view)
Why aRe MORE Black Women Against Interracial RELATIONSHIPS?
Posted: 11/21/2007 12:17:03 PM
If you received intolerant looks from both Black women and white men, why did you only include Black women in the thread's title?
That's bias right there.

Two, most middle- and upper-class whites will NOT show their aggressive nature in public.
Instead, they find covert ways to let someone know that they disapprove of such relationships , such as writing someone out of a will, demoting/firing someone, excluding a "violator" from a social clique, etc.

I recall the story of a "white" woman at a workshop on racism who related that "She and her co-workers (all white) would frequently go out to lunch on a daily basis, and sometimes get together on the weekends to do things.

However, after she brought her husband, who happened to be Black, to the office Christmas party at a local restaurant (first party that wasn't held at the bank's conference room), the very next working day and every day afer that...her co-workers treated her like a pariah: not talking to her, and didn't invite her to go to lunch or call her on the weekends anymore.

Jordan Mardan
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 20 (view)
Posted: 10/19/2007 11:03:50 AM

Alpha Kappa Alpha's international president Barbara A. McKinzie applauded Congresswoman Diane E. Watson for introducing House Resolution 2824, which calls for the U.S. to sever relations with the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. This legislation was triggered by the Cherokee Nation's decision to expel 2800 members of the black Cherokees from its ranks. McKinzie said that at the heart of this expulsion is racism.

"This," said McKinzie, "violates provisions of a treaty agreement between the United States and the Cherokee Nation and this cannot be tolerated."

McKinzie also joined the Congressional Black Caucus in demanding that the Bureau of Indian Affairs leverage its power to force the Nation to restore the black Cherokees (freedmen) to their former status without provisions or conditions. "Until these actions are implemented," declared McKinzie, "the government should withhold the approximate $225 million it allocates to the Cherokee Nation."

In issuing her call to action, she denounced the government for failing to respond to address this matter. She said that failure "makes the government complicit and emboldens the Cherokee Nation to continue to discriminate."

McKinzie said that until this matter is resolved, she is asking members of Alpha Kappa Alpha in Oklahoma to "cease and desist" from supporting the Cherokee Nation's gaming operations, establishments or any other enterprises that they own. She also issued a call to Alpha Kappa Alpha's 200,000 members to bombard the Department of Interior and the Bureau of Indian Affairs with letters and calls of protest.

The Alpha Kappa Alpha leader was particularly outraged because the Cherokee Nation was once disenfranchised and forced to flee its native land when Americans overtook them.

"For a group once victimized to, in turn, commit the same act against a minority within its own nation is an irony that is tragic." McKinzie added that the black Cherokees have contributed to the glorious history of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma and should not be marginalized.

"The government should levy a stiff punishment on the Cherokee Nation and send a message to any other tribe considering such an action. Moreover, the next Attorney General should make righting this wrong a first priority," declared McKinzie.

She added that the Secretary of Interior and the Assistant Secretary of the Bureau of Indiana Affairs should move with haste to remedy this situation.

McKinzie also expressed support of Congressman Watson's call to require the Department of Interior to issue a report to Congress on the status of freedmen's rights in all tribes. In her praise, she noted that Congresswoman Watson is also a member of Alpha Kappa Alpha.

McKinzie says she has a personal interest in this matter because she hails from Oklahoma.

"I am a descendant of the black Cherokees so I am personally invested in this matter," she confided. "I know the legacy of the black Cherokees and the contribution they've made to the Cherokee Nation and to the State of Oklahoma. Because of my black Cherokee roots, I am also a victim of this action."

While McKinzie noted that the issue is unique to Oklahoma, she said its implications elevate it to a worldwide level because it is symptomatic of a larger problem that must be addressed.

Against that reality, she urged all fair-minded people to demand justice by to sending a strong message to the Nation, its leaders and to the government.

For a roster of the government officials to contact, and for the full text of the legislation, she encouraged members and right-thinking Americans to log on to Congresswoman Watson's official website at

CONTACT: Melody M. McDowell -
Chief Information Officer
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 146 (view)
How do you tell if your a victim of Racism?
Posted: 9/30/2007 12:26:58 PM
if you WANT to be a 'victim', go ahead and be a victim.

for some people it's a lifestyle or way of life!

Jordan: No one can actively or passively choose to be a victim of racism or any other isms.
Was Matthew Sheppard not a victim?!
Was James Byrd not a victim?

Are people with non-white American sounding names not victims when a HR person decides not to call he/she in for an interview?

Are the Katrina survivors not victims of FEMA?

Once this "victim" bull, created by conservatives, is cross-examined, one can easily see the ridiculousness of it.
Just a way to divert attention away from the racists/sexists/etc-ists and onto their targets.

Jordan Mardan
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 31 (view)
Laws that encourage racism and inequality
Posted: 9/30/2007 12:17:50 PM
Working Toward Whiteness: How America's Immigrants Become White. The Strange Journey from Ellis Island to the Suburbs (Hardcover)
by David R. Roediger

Too much recent scholarship "simply ignores the long, circuitous process by which 'new immigrants' became 'white ethnics,' " declares Roediger (The Wages of Whiteness), finding that the process in the early 20th century was slower and messier. Well-detailed examples include Greeks and Italians victimized by white mobs at the turn of the century (with the Chicago papers providing the parenthetical identification "Italian" in crime stories just as they did "Negro").

Jobs, Roediger finds, were often divided on lines that separated whites from European immigrants, but unions opened to European immigrants more readily than to Blacks, Mexican-Americans and Asian-Americans. Most significantly, he sees the oppression faced by Europeans as qualitatively different than that faced by other groups and goes into painful detail. Roediger hearkens back to the 1924 immigration restrictions, showing how they drove the "great migration" of African-Americans northward, thus rendering immigrants less "foreign" to some entrenched whites.

Reinforcing that were the immigrant drive for home ownership, backed by New Deal–era restrictive racial covenants and laws against interracial marriage. While slow going, Roediger's book tills some major historical ground.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 80 (view)
Posted: 9/24/2007 1:38:03 PM
optimistically_cynical: Whites do not control 99% of the jobs. Where do you get your data?

Jordan: Oops! That was a typo.

o_c: Want to know what the leat desirable person to be in the job market today? A white male. Try being a white male and seach for a good job. The best thing to be in the job market today is an educated black female. Every door is open for you as you can cover two affirmative action categories at once.

Jordan: No, the best thing to be in a racist job market is an anglo-looking Hispanic female.
One, she's got the "minority/aff. action" category covered. Two, since she's white looking, your white employees are comfortable with her.
And three, as with a Black female, she cannot date (unless she's gay) or impregnate any of her white female co-workers.

But whose fault is it that affirmative action was passed by a Congress that was overwhelmingly white and male, and signed into law by a white male president?!
Right...people who look like you.

o_c: I think you should get real and think out side of the racial box. You are so firmly entrenched in your racist views that you are failing to see reality here. Wake up!

Jordan: And I think you better learn the definition of what both a racist and racism are.
Two, after all...whenever I attend/conduct diversity workshops, it's always white people who claim they have no culture.

I recall a particularly interesting workshop where the facilitators asked participants to identify their ethnicity.
After hearing the names "German, Italian, Irish, and English," the facilitator said, "What happened to all the white people that were here?!"

Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 16 (view)
racism ended relationship :( still hurts
Posted: 9/24/2007 1:21:55 PM
sotexman: I was married to someone not of my race, and at the risk of sounding racist, I won't do that again. Just too many cultural differences.

SCW: "Race" which doesn't exist...has nothing to do with it. Culture does.

Although Condolezza Rice and I are of the same ethnicity, I wouldn't date her.
I wouldn't date any conservative.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 77 (view)
Posted: 9/2/2007 3:23:21 PM
optimistic: Now who is being the racist? Does it make you feel good? This just reflects what society has seen for years now. The equality movemnet for blacks is not about achieving equality, it is about developing supremacy....... What a shame, you would think that a race that has been through the struggles that blacks have would be more in tune with the concept of equality. I guess as a group they are trying to get pay back rather than equality.

Jordan: There's nothing racist about my humorus statement.
There nothing in there that suggests that "whites are inferior to Blacks."

That's quite a perverse interpretation of MY words.

All it conveys is that "if whites were to get a taste of their own medicine, then perhaps they wouldn't be so quick to discriminate against everyone else."

Whites control over 99% of the jobs in the U.S.
So the likelihood of a Person of Color encountering employment discrimination in the U.S. is astronomically higher than the 1% chance that a white person will experience employment discrimination at the hands of Black people.

Get real...and learn to be a critical thinker.

Jordan Mardan
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 76 (view)
Posted: 9/2/2007 3:11:57 PM
criss: As a white male, I will tell you that most white people have to bend over backwards not to say or do anything that can possibly be seen as racist. Why? Because we know that you will play the race card in anyway possible.

Jordan: On one of the e-mail listservs I'm a member of, we're currently discussing "Ways Whites Play the Race Card," and those things frequently involve the the simple EXCLUSION of members of Groups of Color from policy-making bodies/taskforces; not including the achievements and contributions of People of Color in K-12 and the college/university curriculums; racial profiling, and many other customs, practices etc. that whites engage in on a daily basis.

And whites don't actually annunciate a particular group's name...they simply don't invite them to participate or inform them of meetings, etc.

criss: So, yes, we try to act as though there are no racial issues in order to prevent a racial war.

Jordan: The items I listed up above do CONSTITUTE an economic, political, and social war on People of Color by white people.
So your "in order to prevent a racial war" nothing but a damn lie.

criss: The ONLY reason OJ Simpleton was found not guilty is because the white people knew that the black people would riot,

Jordan: What planet is Criss living on?!
The jury that acquitted OJ was predominantly Black, not white.

criss: loot and burn down their "hoods".

Jordan: The overwhelming majority of houses/apts/vacant commerical buildings in "hoods" where POOR Blacks live are owned by white people.

You don't see these hoodlums burning down houses, etc., in middle- and upper-class Black neighborhoods, do you?! Nope....because they know that whites don't own them.

criss: Instead of being outraged, you are screaming race - because he's black!

Jordan: That's a lie.....simply because I have NOT written anything about the Vick case in this forum.

However, in the much larger scheme of racialized issues, the over-reporting of the Vick case on all the major TV news networks, talk radio, magazines, and newspapers
proves one thing:

When Blacks are the perpetrators of crime, they can be seen everywhere in the media.
However, on the other hand, when Blacks are the victims of crime/ many news networks, talk radio's talking heads, magazines, or newspapers actually cover the story?!
Very f**king few. Very few.

criss: However, there were many black women and men - many of the men were dressed in blue jeans that hung down to the bottom of their crack with their baseball hat on sideways.

Many of the black women were almost as bad in their dress. Some had finger nails that were 3 inches long. Some were so fat, it would have been impossible for them to have passed the PT test.

Jordan: I don't believe any of this sh*t...but, of course, those whites that are saturated with stereotypes of Blacks will indeed believe it.

But here's the kicker: I thought these people, according to whites, were too lazy or stupid to get up, get dressed, and actually go downtown to complete a job application in the first place. (?!)

So you're telling us that these people were trying to get off their welfare and/or crazy checks by completing an application for a job?!
Wow! That's progress.

criss: I can't believe you whine about white people being racist. Look at any big city that has a black government and you will find a city filled with crime or a ghost town full of once thriving businesses that are now closed and boarded up. In other words: a slum.

Jordan: I can think of many, many cities with Black governments that are thriving.
On the other hand, how many white-controlled governments are in the very condition that you cite?!

I can of think of many, many, many across the U.S., and especially right here in KY.
In fact, just about a month ago the white mayor, white city clerk, and white police chief of the City of Manchester pleaded guilty to conspiracy to manipulate city revenues/resources for their own benefit for over 20 years, public corruption, protection of drug dealers, arson, and several other crimes.

And then there's the corruption of KY's white governor and his administration/henchmen who were caught replacing merit system employees with political supporters.

One of the white male supporters of the scheme was caught on tape saying "if we only hire people that are qualified for these jobs, how will any of our people get hired?!"

Many places like Detroit, Michigan are suffering from downturns in the auto manufacturing industry as vehicle makers attempt to compete with foreign automakers like Toyota, etc. who do not provide their employees with the type of benefits that long-time American auto workers have enjoyed.

Why did Toyota locate its first plant in Georgetown, KY (about 15 minutes from me) and why did Saturn locate its plant in Smyrna, TN?

Because they knew that the workers in those areas would work FOR LESS PAY and benefits than the workers in Detroit.

Cities like Gary, Indiana are still suffering from the closing of the huge number of steel mills. These cities, like other cities across the nation, must find ways to re-tool and re-envision their economies.

criss: Now, put that in your bong and smoke it, Jack!

Jordan: I think my answers smoked yours, and further...more evidence exists to support my contentions than yours.

I still find it difficult to imagine that you could have gotten an "almost perfect score on the exam" for the police dept.
Probably just another lie in an attempt to play on the stereotypes of Blacks held by white people.

Jordan Mardan
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 74 (view)
Posted: 9/2/2007 2:11:43 PM
criss: The White Female LT that gave me the polygraph told me that although I scored almost a perfect score on the exam and excelled on the PT test, she did not think that I would be hired because they were only hiring Blacks.

Jordan: Is that the fault of Blacks or people who look like Criss?!

crissI said, so if a Black female scores 68 on the test and fails the PT test, she will be hired instead of me. The LT said yes.

Jordan: Many companies, agencies, etc. have been fined, etc. for incorrectly implementing affirmative action programs and criss's example looks like one of them.
If I were you I'd contact your state's EEOC program.

criss: She then told me that I didn't want to work for that dept because the moral among the White police officer were the lowest that she has ever seen it, in her 30 years of service.
Why is the moral so low among the white police officers? You guessed it -Racist Blacks who openly discriminated against Whites.
Needless to say, I wasn't hired. Why? Because I am White.

Jordan: Heh heh heh heh heh heh!!!
It's sort of good that white people get the opportunity to learn what it feels like to be discriminated against....when you know you're qualified for the job.

How frequently during the 60s, 70s, and 80s did we hear whites saying "Blacks are pushing too hard and too fast for equal rights?"

What does that sentence mean?!
It means that whites were AWARE that they were OPENLY oppressing Blacks and other groups of color, preventing them from accessing opportunities .

People of Color have had to experience this for the overwhelming majority of American history.

Based on the various messages Criss has posted to the PoF forums, I find it rather difficult to imagine that Criss could have gotten an "almost perfect score on the exam."

A white's lie is more significant than their term "a little white lie."

Jordan Mardan
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 73 (view)
Racing to a Conclusion
Posted: 8/23/2007 8:42:09 AM
In response to your position regarding "rational basis for theorizing" about the existence of races....actually...the first use of race was applied ti European aristocracy and peasants.

It's also been used in the U.S. to denote that white women and poor whites were of a different race than elite white males and their male offspring.

In any's something else to chew on:

Z Magazine

Fog Watch

The New Racist Onslaught
Intellectual Tricks Can Always Fool Those Receptive to Racism

By Edward S. Herman

The Bell Curve, by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray, and the publicity given to it by the mainstream media, is part of a new racist onslaught on the Black poor, that, not coincidentally, has gathered steam during a period of austerity for ordinary citizens and pressures for budgetary cutbacks by the corporate community. In his 1974 essay "Racist Arguments and IQ," Stephen J. Gould, writing about an earlier resurgence of "biological determinism," asked, if the new theory "rests on no new facts (actually, no facts at all), then why has it become so popular of late?

The answer must be social and political." Gould pointed out, further, that in a period when poverty is still growing, the question arises:
is impoverishment a result of not enough money or creative ideas, or of program failure "because their recipients are inherently what they are--blaming the victims. Now, which alternative will be chosen by men in power in an age of retrenchment?"

Acceptability of Racist Doctrine

What is most notable and least remarked upon about the reception of The Bell Curve is the renewed acceptability and/or tolerance of straightforward racist doctrine. A book that purported to prove, with voluminous statistics, that Italians or Jews were inherently stupid or suffered from other inherited defects, would not be given immediate substantial publicity and serious treatment; mainstream commentators would not assert that such a book was raising reasonable and even urgent questions that we should listen to with open minds.

The theme would be seen as invidious and insulting to Italians or Jews, and the book would have to have phenomenal credentials and authentication by experts and notables before it would be taken at all seriously in the mainstream media.

The case of books by "holocaust deniers" is instructive in this regard. Many of their works are large, stuffed with alleged empirical evidence and copious footnotes. But the only books on holocaust denial that are given direct press coverage in this country are those denouncing the deniers; the denier books themselves are ignored and are available only underground. Critics of the denier books are indignant, not only at the falsifications, but also on the grounds that denial of the holocaust is dangerously provocative, is part of a larger anti-Semitic package, and is deeply insulting to holocaust survivors and their descendants.

The denier books are, in truth, unworthy of serious media attention, but so are many or all of the racist tomes attacking blacks that do gain media attention. That fact that racist works such as The Bell Curve are deeply insulting to Blacks seems to have no bearing on their treatment in mainstream publications. The fact that for 100 years anti-Black racist theories have surfaced, gotten great publicity, and in retrospect can be seen as social prejudice translated into purported "science," doesn't interfere with the next stage of the same process.

With characteristic hypocrisy, the New York Times editorialized against the "The `Bell Curve' Agenda" (Oct. 24), castigating the publicity given the book, while a week previously the paper had featured it, along with two other similar tomes, on the front page of its Sunday Book Review, with a very long and thoroughly incompetent whitewash by reporter Malcolm Browne (Oct. 16). Browne's review regurgitated all the old cliches of discredited racist science, including elementary confusions of correlation with causation. The reviewer contended that although the arguments of the book are "unfashionable and unsafe," the issues are really important to society, although the policy conclusions that would follow from The Bell Curve argument are left vague.

On the one hand, there is the clear implication that we should cut budgets supporting the genetically hopeless. On the other hand, Browne tells his readers that Herrnstein and Murray are deeply worried about the enormous "potential for racial hatred," not in the book but in the facts of genes and race. That their work might actively contribute to racial hatred never occurs to Browne.

He even closes his review telling readers that "the most insistent plea of the four authors is for freedom of debate and an end to the shroud of censorship imposed upon scientists and scholars by pressure groups..." In other words, anti-Black theorizing, even if blatant and a rerun of long repudiated doctrine, is not provocation and bigotry; it is courageous truth-seeking by "scholars."

Racist Traditions and Power

There is a physical difference between the White and Black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." That was Abraham Lincoln, the great emancipator, in 1858.

"I experienced pity at the sight of this degraded and degenerate race, and their lot inspired compassion in me in thinking that they were really men." This was Louis Agassiz, the great Harvard scientist, reflecting on Black servants he met at a Philadelphia hotel in 1846, from which he drew large generalizations. Gould points out in his The Mismeasure of Man that "All American culture heroes embraced racial attitudes that would embarrass public-school mythmakers."

Built on Black slavery, with segregation and poverty helping reinforce stereotypes after 1865, racism has deep and persistent roots in this country. Today, racist Bob Grant has a radio audience of 680,000 in New York City, and racist Rush Limbaugh has a supportive audience of millions (extending to Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas).

Reagan with his repeated imagery of Black welfare mothers exploiting the taxpayer, Bush with Willie Horton and the menace of "quotas," and a slew of code words bandied about by politicians, show that polarizing racist language and political strategies are acceptable and even integral parts of mainstream culture today.

With such a system of attitudes, racist theories matching the stereotypes gear into the culture and reach a receptive audience, and the marketing strategies of book publishers will feed this same maw of hate, just as anti-Semitic works had a receptive audience and presented a marketing potential to be tapped in Weimar Germany and elsewhere in Europe in the years before World War II.

Racist Fraud and "Science" History

A primary characteristic of propaganda that serves the powerful is the blacking out of inconvenient history. In the case of weapons "gaps" during the Cold War, each new gap claimed by the military-industrial complex was taken at face value in the mainstream media and treated without any reference to the prior gaps, whose fraudulence had been exposed only after the contracts were let.

Reviewers of The Bell Curve don't discuss the Arthur Jensen and Cyril Burt stories, or the longer history of discredited racist theory. Malcolm Browne, in his Times review, mentions Stephen Gould's The Mismeasure of Man in a passing phrase; but he does not tap its contents, which would show The Bell Curve 's close family resemblance to earlier doctrine and refutes argument after argument that Browne reports as if fresh and possibly true. Gould's The Mismeasure of Man reviews the evolution of "scientific" racism, which means "any claims apparently backed by copious numbers..”

Craniometry held the stage for a while, then "recapitulationism," then "neoteny" (literally, holding on to youth), and then IQ testing and theories of a genetic base to IQ. The drollest phase of the evolution of racist theory was the shift from recapitulationism to neoteny, as this involved a reversal of superior-inferior physical characteristics.

In recapitulation theory, human embryonic and juvenile development recapitulated earlier evolutionary history, so that Blacks were shown to be inferior by their retention of juvenile traits. By the end of the 1920s this theory had collapsed in favor of the view that the primary feature of human growth was its long retention of juvenile features and gradual loss of previous adult structures. Under recapitulation, Black adults should be like white children; under neoteny, white adults should be like Black children.

As Gould notes, "For seventy years, under the sway of recapitulation, scientists had collected reams of data all loudly proclaiming the same message: adult Blacks, women, and lower class whites are like white upper-class male children." When neoteny came into vogue, this data should have demonstrated Black superiority.

But of course this never happened; supporters of the new theory "simply abandoned their seventy years of hard data and sought new and opposite information to confirm the inferiority of Blacks." And they found it.

Gould shows that numerous and eminent scientists throughout the 19th and 20th century subtly, or with knowing dishonesty, doctored the evidence and classification systems and made seriously unscientific generalizations to support preconceived racist views. The distinguished craniologist Paul Broca collected voluminous data on brain and head size showing conventionally "superior" groups to have larger brains than their inferiors. Gould, after reading Broca's major works, found a "definite pattern in his methods.”

That is, "Conclusions came first and Broca's conclusions were the shared assumptions of most successful white males during his time....His facts were reliable...but they were gathered selectively and then manipulated unconsciously...Broca did not fudge numbers; he merely selected among them or interpreted his way around them to favored conclusions."

Gould's book shows that the durable biases and frauds of racist science were mainly "honest," not based on conscious deception. In retrospect, however, it is readily demonstrable that these scientists were embarrassingly wrong, and mainly because they were prisoners of racist ideology.

Jensen and Burt

An immediately prior rerun to The Bell Curve, built on the modern focus of racist theory on IQ differences, was Arthur Jensen's publications of 1969 and 1978. His 1969 feature article in the Harvard Educational Review, "How much can we boost IQ and scholastic achievement?" contended that intelligence was a genetically transmitted quantity that could be measured by IQ tests, and that the 15 points average difference between Blacks and Whites rested on heredity, not environment.

Jensen's political bias and lack of scientific discipline showed itself in his opening page statement that "Compensatory education has been tried, and it apparently has failed." This hint at the possible genetic basis of failure misses two points: environmental effects go beyond education, and compensatory education programs may or may not have been of adequate quantity and quality.

Jensen's main proofs of the dominance of genes rested heavily on studies of identical (white) twins brought up in different households, which provided the basis for a highly dubious estimate that 80 percent of the variability in intelligence could be explained by heredity. He argued that the 15 point difference in Black and White IQ scores was too large to be explained by environment, given the importance of heredity in fixing intelligence.

The empirical foundation of this case collapsed when it turned out that the leading scientific source of identical twin studies, Sir Cyril Burt, had concocted data to meet the demands of racist science. The theoretical fallacies in Jensen's case run deep.

Environmental differences could account for substantial variation in IQs within groups, but even more clearly the importance of the genetic factor within groups tells us nothing about what determines the differences in mean values between groups--environmental differences could easily and fully explain inter-group differences, just as they might explain differences in average weights between groups, one well nourished, the other undernourished. This elementary statistical fallacy was at the heart of Jensen's argument.

Nevertheless, Jensen got a lot of publicity in 1969, and his research, although subject to harsh criticism by people like Gould, Richard Lewontin, Steven Rose and Leon Kamin, certainly did not cause him to be ostracized as another in the line of racists looking for good reasons to keep Blacks in their place.

In fact, when he came up with another study along the same line in 1978, Bias in Mental Testing, he was once again treated respectfully and given space in the mainstream media. Gould points out that Jensen's 1978 book comes to exactly the same conclusion as his 1969 article, but that he had shifted ground from identical twins and genetic theory.

"He is simply using a different and more indirect, argument to prop up the same old claim. And he has buried the central fallacies of that argument so deeply among the apparent rigor of these 800 pages of lists, figures, and charts that no commentator in the mass media managed to ferret them out."

In the new book Jensen argued that IQ tests are unbiased in measuring intelligence within groups, but then subtly uses "unbiased" to mean an unbiased measure between groups.
He never attempts to prove the claim of non-bias between groups, so essentially he arrives at his racist conclusion once again by an intellectual trick. And once again he fooled reviewers in Time and Newsweek, who are receptive to a racist message and fool easily.

Concluding Note

Racism is more American than apple pie. The receptive mass audience is encouraged in its worst prejudices by racist politicians and rightists who see racial polarization as helpful to advancing their power and agenda. Publishers like Basic Books see a potential best seller in The Bell Curve in such an environment. As the book is advertised heavily, and its racist message is approved by large numbers, including many with economic and political clout, it is treated as a serious book.

There is criticism in opinion columns, letters, and some reviews, but even the criticisms give it valuable publicity. Very few of the reviews frame the book in the history of racist "science," or denounce it as another racist insult tending to the encourage negative stereotypes and political and social violence against Black people.

This is racism normalized, made acceptable to an important racist constituency and fitted to serve the political agenda of the powerful, setting the intellectual and moral stage for a new wave of harsh policies toward the heirs of the victims of the slave system.

Jordan: You all need to learn about history and how these things continue to influence policy and practice.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 42 (view)
Individual identity vs. ethnic/racial identity
Posted: 8/22/2007 11:32:03 AM
Reflective of Sempre's messages, here's one of several efforts I have co-founded here in Lexington:

Combating Racism on Campus
Study Circles at the University of Kentucky

by David Stockham
September 1, 2001 | Lexington, KY

Editor's Note: Study circles sponsored at the University of Kentucky for the last six semesters have attracted more than 100 participants. The purpose of this article is to advocate for campus use of this program and to describe how it has been accomplished at UK.

Author David Stockham retired from the University of Kentucky as Dean of Students in August 2000. After learning about study circles sponsored by a coalition of churches in Lexington, John Lindsay, an African-American student leader who has since graduated, and Stockham, a European-American, launched the program on the UK campus in spring 1999. They believe that biracial leadership and a multi-ethnic support group are key ingredients for initiating and sustaining campus groups. Thanks to continuing university funding and organizational support and help from the National Conference for Community and Justice, the program hopes to expand the number of groups offered each semester.

Combating bigotry and racism is an ongoing task. Many people believe the problem is solved or are unaware of its existence or, even worse, know it exists but don't care. Others are tired of hearing about diversity or claim they once hada course in it or dismiss it as PC. Much of the problem is not overt malevolence, but ignorance, insensitivity and indifference. The challenge is to make individuals aware of racism without preaching or triggering guilt, which simply closes minds and increases resistance.

Study Circles are a non-coercive way to introduce participants to the debilitating effects of racism. They are effective because discussions among ethnically different participants can reveal life experiences that transcend stereotypes and show how certain groups are the targets of racism while others benefit from it. The sharing of first-person stories often leads to realizations that have an intellectual and emotional impact far more dramatic than reading about injustice or simply recounting the statistics of inequity. Once people are touched on intellectual and emotional levels, they can and do change attitudes and behavior that would not yield to external attempts to effect change.

Colleges and universities are a logical fit for study circles. The dialogue format is consistent with the notion of the free exchange of ideas and higher education's goal to be a crossroads for those who are culturally and ethnically different. Membership in a diverse community does not automatically confer the ability to appreciate or communicate among those who do not share the same culture or ethnicity. Study Circles offer an important first step for students, staff, faculty, and community members to:
-- become more comfortable with themselves and others who are ethnically different,
-- engage in discussions they would have considered taboo if it were not for this experience,

-- take part in an out-of-class activity that complements course content, and
-- acquire the cultural literacy that is increasingly expected on and off campus.

In addition to benefits for individuals, sponsoring study circles on campus demonstrates an institution's commitment to oppose racism; encourages faculty, staff and students to promote ethnic and cultural understanding; and creates a growing cadre of people who can respond effectively if and when racial problems emerge. Study Circles were introduced to Lexington in the early 1990s by the Downtown Christian Unity Task Force, a coalition of churches.

They were launched on the UK campus in the spring of 1999 under the joint sponsorship of John Lindsay, the president of AWARE (Alliance Working to Achieve Racial Equality), a student organization, and the dean of students at that time, David Stockham. From the beginning, this effort owes its existence to a network of people who have volunteered their time and expertise. However, two individuals from the Task Force, Ellen Parks and John Trotter, have been especially steadfast in their leadership and as model facilitators.

The campus program uses the discussion guide titled Facing the Challenge of Racism and Race Relations: Democratic Dialogue and Action for Stronger Communities. Discussions, called Ethnic Dialogues, are described as a non-confrontational forum to talk about race and racism in an honest and probing way, to explore alternative viewpoints, to foster respect and understanding, and to help participants gain confidence and skill interacting across ethnic and cultural boundaries.

Two ten-member dialogues are routinely offered each October and February. Additional groups are formed when needed or when a department chooses to sponsor a group of its own. Dialogues meet for five weekly sessions between 6 and 8 p.m.. Pizza and soft drinks are served at no cost to participants. This schedule allows time for community members to travel to campus and capitalizes on the time students are likely to be available.

Participant evaluations are consistently positive. Yet, before many individuals will commit to join a dialogue, they have to overcome initial reservations about discussing racism in a biracial group. For this reason, there is need for personal follow up, stressing positive outcomes for persons of color as well as majority group members. Inviting participation as an opportunity to explore new territory instead of an antidote for personality or character flaws is also important.

Flyers, a web site, word-of-mouth and newspaper ads have been used to attract participants, but the method that has proven the most successful is the advocacy by faculty who allocate class time to promote the dialogues and offer course credit for participation. In addition, the option to apply on line has increased the number of applicants this year.

A balanced ethnic mix, which is as close as possible to a 50-50 ratio (people of color and majority persons) is a major goal. Majority group members and people of color have similar interest in participation, but because of demographics, there are typically more majority group applicants than people of color. Requiring applicants to apply in ethnic pairs has helped achieve balanced representation during the last two semesters.
Skilled facilitators are a key to assuring a successful experience for participants.

Facilitators who lead the community program have been actively involved from the beginning of the campus effort. The number of facilitators has been increased by inviting interested parties to attend training offered by the local office of the National Conference for Community and Justice. When trainees have completed this training, they are assigned to work with experienced facilitators.

The UK program, which is financed by donated funds, is perpetuated by dedicated volunteers who promote participation, contribute computer skills, and provide duplicating and clerical support. It costs approximately $1,000 to sponsor two dialogues each semester. Two-thirds of this amount pays for pizza and soft drinks, and the balance goes for printing and newspaper ads. To date it has not been difficult to raise needed funds. The willingness of departments and student organizations to support study circles is evidence of its campus applicability, but there are even more compelling arguments for campus programs.

Study circles are a valuable campus resource because they are effective and non-controversial, attract voluntary involvement, stimulate multi-ethnic cooperation, encourage campus/community interaction, involve faculty, staff and students, and can be adapted to complement existing institutional initiatives. More importantly, a campus-based program overcomes a potential problem with community groups. Over time, communities can exhaust their pool of citizens who are study circle candidates. College and university populations change by one-fourth or more each year, which provides an annual infusion of potential participants. If a fraction of this group has a positive study circle experience, it offers the possibility of a lifetime of enlightened behavior to combat racism.

The most frequently voiced criticism of study circles is, "You are just preaching to the choir." In doing battle with an enemy as formidable as racism, what is wrong with having a better choir singing praises to brotherhood and justice?
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 40 (view)
Individual identity vs. ethnic/racial identity
Posted: 8/22/2007 10:34:13 AM
More "whites" working against racism:
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 15 (view)
Cherokee Racism
Posted: 8/22/2007 8:44:33 AM
montanan: My own two kids are 1/16 Utes on their mom's side. Should I go make a claim for them as being Ute indians to see if thet can get benefits? I think not. Neither do they.

Jordan: Did your children ever live on a reservation?

montanan: Racism has nothing to do with this matter. Money and lands have everything to do with this matter.

Jordan: Racism is about the curtailment of citizenship and resources to a select group, just as whites have and are limiting citizenship rights and access to opportunities to People of Color (African-/Asian-/Latino-/ and "Native"-Americans.

The casinos, etc., are an unlimited source of resources.
Hence, the "kicking out of certain members" is nothing but racism and greed.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 1352 (view)
Why Do I See More Caucasian Men Dating Asian Women?
Posted: 8/22/2007 8:35:35 AM
staticks: Are women just underexposed to Asian faces, either in positive/sexual media depictions or lack of diversity while growing up, and thus aren't socialized to be attracted to them? OR, are Asians just that plain fugly?"

Jordan: When you wrote "are women underexposed...", I assume you mean any woman other than Asian women, right?! Or just white women?

Anyway, your last question gets at the HIDDEN role of culture in an individual's preferences.
People often believe that "their choice is their own."
But it isn't.

Good comments,

Jordan mardan
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 38 (view)
Individual identity vs. ethnic/racial identity
Posted: 8/21/2007 11:06:23 AM
Here's what some white people are doing to address racism and other isms:
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 37 (view)
Individual identity vs. ethnic/racial identity
Posted: 8/21/2007 11:04:03 AM
arieann: "Maybe western or elite white culture did, but again its in the past. We all must continue to move forward instead of holding grudges on things that happened over a century ago."

Jordan: The Bell Curve was published in 1995 and became a best seller. It contains the SOS (same ol' sh*t) that de Gobineau Knott, and other racialists were writing about a century ago.

Then there's the "prof" in Canada, Phillippe Rushton who continues to produce a lot of "bell curvish" materials.

areiann: Lets change todays problems what we can change.
Jordan: And what have you done or ared doing to achieve that?

areiann: Just because a group of people from the KKK burn a cross does not mean all white people are involved or approve of it.

Jordan: You approv eof keeping it out of the news...making it seem that such incidents are few and far between.
According to the Southern Poverty Law Center (, there were over 30,000 hate crimes committed in the US in 2002. That's over 100 per day.
Yet...only a handful were reported by the white-owned media.

In the same way that so many of you criticize my publicizing of discrimination, it seems that you all would prefer that this information be kept quiet, too.
And what's more, rather than addressing the contents of the messages or offering ways to improve or eliminate these problems, you attack the messenger.

arieann: Just because the black panthers marched in Durham siding with the accusser, does not mean all blacks sided with her.

Jordan: You're not the only person that is ignorant of ther Black Panthers.
The Panthers were formed to fight police brutality and therefore fight for the rights of citizenship.

On the other hand, the KKK and other whites fight for the curtailment of certain groups' rights. Hence, why do most whites continue to erroneously believe that the Panthers were an anti-american radical group?! Not true.

In addition to fighting against police brutality in Oakland, they setup homeless shelters, provided legal advice (2 were lawyers), developed tutoring and mentoring programs, and a whole lot of other stuff...but most whites don't see to know these things. Instead, every time a Person of Color says or writes something about the Confederate flag, the first thing that come sout of the mouths of whites is "What about Malcolm X or the Black Panthers?"

LEARN THE TRUTH ABOUT THEM...rather than the lies of J. Edgar Hoover.

arieann: Is spelling america that way your way of trying to end racism.I didnt see it that way.

Jordan: People don't take notice until you give them something to notice.
And I will continue to spell it that way until this nation actually reflects what is in its Constitution.

arieann: It looked like your way of ,as leewells put it, throwing fuel into the fire.

Jordan: Well, according to you all...simply just posting articles about racism is "throwing fuel on the fire, too."

I've yet to see any problem that was ever NOT talking about it.
And that's what the criticizing of my messages/articles is: a way to avoid discussing them.
"Stop your remarks and you will see, you will get respect from most people, including whites"...same thing...avoidance.

arieann: There are no racial issues in my life.

Jordan: If you live in any part of the world...there are "racial" issues.
If your school didn't teach you about the accomplishments and contributions of People of color to america and the world...then that's a "racial" issue.

So theres probably a slew of raical issues ging on in your area that you're unaware of because of your whiteness.

Hopefully, you will read some of the books I've posted on whiteness, such as "Learning To Be White: Money, Race, and God in America."

Once you've learned your true history, then and only then can we work on the problems that are before us.

Jordan Mardan
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 71 (view)
Race: The Power of An Illusion
Posted: 8/20/2007 10:45:55 AM
freeballin: The information of poverty may be true, but whose job is it to change it? I know what I have to do and it took me a long time to accept it.

Jordan: That's NOT the point of my message.
The point is that "there are more whites living in poverty than there are African Americans."
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 70 (view)
Race: The Power of An Illusion
Posted: 8/20/2007 10:43:10 AM
freeballin: I don't care who you are and how self righteous you think you are, race does exist because prejudism exists.

Jordan: And neither do I give a damn who you are or how self-righteous you think you are.

It always "interesting" how white people often cannot address the content of a message, and thus resort to "attacking the messenger."

So please continue to display your ignorance for us.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 69 (view)
Race: The Power of An Illusion
Posted: 8/20/2007 10:39:52 AM
I guess if I had posted 1,000 messages about sports, you would NOT have written that, would you?!

arieann: No, because sports has nothing to do with this topic.Why would I come to this thread and talk about sports.

Jordan: What you actually wrote was that you "had checked my last 25 posts and each thread had something to do with race ."
And my reply was and still is "if we had been discussing sports, and each of my last 25 messages had covered sports, you would NOT be writing the same retort, would you?!

arieann: Its not my business, I just want to get to know you because you turn me on with sassy talk.

Jordan: "Sassy?!"
So you are an "Aryan," meaning white supremacist who believes that Blacks should stay in their place and NOT sass white people, hunh?!

arieann: So f*ckoff. Dont usethe "F" word with me unless you want top back it up.
Jordan: "top back it up?!" Did you mean "to back it up" and just what would that be?
I decline the offer.

Maybe criss will.

arieann: Seriously, I dont think race has anything to do with sexuality or anything else. I think its culture that does. But no certain way is the wrong way.

Jordan: I don't know why you wrote that because no one wrote anything about sexuality.

However, as I wrote in the thread "why do Caucasian men date Asian women," "sexuality has nothing to do with this imaginary thing called 'race'...but with culture, customs, religious beliefs, sexual experiences, and the like."

So we agree on that.

Jordan Mardan
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 32 (view)
Individual identity vs. ethnic/racial identity
Posted: 8/19/2007 9:20:12 AM
arieann or is it really Aryan?!: What makes you believe this?
You keep referring to "whites". And when you say"ignores the role of culture" we realize what culture is in america, thats what the lady who started this thread is trying to change. I see you are not going to try to change. You are going to look for or invent things to complain about. You seem have a parodoid imagination.

Jordan: demonstrate a severe lack of knowledge.
But don't worry, you're certainly not alone.

You have a lot of resources at your fingertips...if you would just UTILIZE them.
Calling me names does NOT change the facts, little girl.

Following is a brief history of the development of "race" by both Europeans and elite whites in America.

Race: The Power of An Illusion

Count Arthur de Gobineau

Scientific racism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scientific racism might refer to either obsolete scientific theories of the 19th century or to historical and contemporary racist propaganda disguised as scientific research. However, both senses of the word sometimes overlap.

In the historical sense of the word, scientific racism (or pseudo-scientifical racism) includes physical anthropology, anthropometry, craniometry, phrenology, physiognomy and other disciplines, in order to provide a typology of different "human races", based on a biological conception of the race.

Such theories have provided ideological justifications to racism, slavery and colonialism during the New Imperialism period in the second half of the 19th century. Their popularity coincide with this period of European expansion in the world. These scholarly theories sometimes worked in conjunction with racism, for example in the case of the "human zoos", during which various human beings were presented in cages during colonial exhibitions. They were strongly denounced after World War II and the Holocaust, in particular by the UNESCO 1950 statement, signed by internationally known scholars, and titled The Race Question.

Today, the phrase is used either as an accusation or to describe what is generally considered to be historical racist propaganda about the supposed existence of different "human races", refutated by The Race Question UNESCO statement who advocated the use of the more precise term "ethnic group". The phrase has been applied retroactively to publications on race as far back as the 18th century. Many subsequently *disproven claims* of scientific conclusion have been used as advocacy for racist policies.

Along with eugenics, invented by Francis Galton and popularized at the turn of the 20th century, such theories, which often postulated a "master race", usually "Nordic" and "Aryan", were a main influence of the Nazi racial policies and their program of eugenics. However, this was not necessarily a continuous relationship, as several influential authors of Nazism were not anti-semitic. Quite to the contrary, Arthur de Gobineau (1816-82), for example, was a philo-semite who placed the "Jewish race" above all. Thus, although his racial theories largely influenced Nazi ideologies, they had to adapt him to suit their mindset.

Apart from Gobineau's 1853 The Inequality of Human Races,[1] other scientific racist works that largely influenced Nazism were Francis Galton’s 1870 Hereditary Genius: An Inquiry into Its Laws and Consequences,[2] Madison Grant’s 1916/1924 The Passing of the Great Race[3] and Lothrop T. Stoddard’s 1920 The Rising Tide of Color Against White World Supremacy[4]

Beside this first acception of the term, scientific racism is a pejorative label sometimes given to modern theories or arguments that allege that scientific evidence shows significant evolutionary differences between races or ethnic groups.
In this sense, the term is used to criticize modern studies of human genetics or studies claiming to show a link between race and intelligence, as well as hierarchically classifying races, hence asserting the superiority or inferiority of specific ones.
Critics of such studies assert that both "race" and "intelligence" are fuzzy concepts.

Earliest examples of scientific racism

See also: Race (historical definitions)

Regular publications on race and other claimed differences between people of different geographical locations began at least as early as the eighteenth century. The 17th and 18th century were marked by natural history, in which the concept of evolution had no sense. Early attempts at distinguishing various races had been made by Henri de Boulainvilliers (1658-1722), who divided the nation between two races, the aristocratic, "French" race, descendants of the Franks, a Nordic race, and the Gallo-Roman, indigenous race, which comprised the population of the Third Estate.

According to Boulainvilliers, the descendants of the Franks dominated the Third Estate by a right of conquest. In the exact opposite of modern nationalism, the foreigners had a legitimate right of domination on indigenous peoples. But contrary to later, scientifically-justified theories of race, Boulainvilliers did not understand the concept of race as designing an eternal and immutable essence. His account was not, however, only a mythical tale: contrary to hagiographies and epics such as The Song of Roland, Boulainvilliers sought some kind of scientific legitimity by basing his distinction between a Nordic race and a Latin race on true, historical events. But his theory of races was completely distinct from the biological concept of race later used by nineteenth century's theories of scientific racism.

Carolus Linnaeus (1707-78), a Swedish botanist, physician and zoologist, who laid the bases of binomial nomenclature (the method of naming species) and is known as the "father of modern taxonomy" (the science of describing, categorising and naming organisms) was also a pioneer in defining the concept of "race" as applied to humans. Within Homo sapiens he proposed four taxa of a lower (unnamed) rank. These categories are, Americanus, Asiaticus, Africanus, and Europeanus. They were based on place of origin at first, and later skin color. Each race had certain characteristics that were endemic to individuals belonging to it. Native Americans were reddish, stubborn, and angered easily. Africans were black, relaxed and negligent. Asians were yellow, avaricious, and easily distracted. Europeans were white, gentle, and inventive.[5]

Nott's and Gliddon's Indigenous races of the earth (1857) used misleading imagery to suggest that "Negroes" ranked between whites and chimpanzees.
The scientific classification proposed by Linnaeus was a prerequisite of any attempts at scientifically classifying humanity according to various races. Unilinealism depicting a progression from primitive human societies to industrialised civilisation became popular amongst philosophers including Friedrich Hegel, Immanuel Kant and Auguste Comte, and fitted well with the Christian belief of a divine Creation following which all of humanity descended from the same Adam and Eve.

In contrast, polygenist theory alleged that there were different origins of mankind, thus making it possible to conceive of different, biological, human races, or to classify other humans as akin to animals without rights. Early scientific racist theories such as Arthur Gobineau's An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races (1853-1855) were mostly decadent in that they did not believe in the possibility of "improvement of the race."

Charles Darwin's 1859 On the Origin of Species was very influential, although it made no mention of humanity and when he published his views in his The Descent of Man of 1871 he was emphatic that there were no clear distinctive characteristics to categorise races as separate species, and that all shared very similar physical and mental characteristics indicating common ancestry

However with "Social Darwinism", a later name for ideas from earlier thinkers combined with concepts of evolution by natural selection, scientific racist theories could postulate a racist "survival of the fittest," an expression coined by Herbert Spencer in 1864. Ideas of improving human races were popularized by Francis Galton's "eugenics". Scientific racism theories, influenced by other discourses and events, became extremely popular towards the end of the 19th century.

Phrenology, which attempted to describe traits of character by outward appearance, including by the shape of skulls, measured via craniometry, and of skeletons, was put to use in racist ends. Thus, skulls and skeletons of Black people and other indigenous people were displayed between apes and white men. Thus, Ota Benga, a Pygmy, was displayed as the "Missing Link" in 1906 in the Bronx Zoo in New York, alongside apes and other animals.

Some of the most influential theories included Vacher de Lapouge (1854-1936)'s "anthroposociology" and Herder (1744-1803), who applied "race" to nationalist theory to develop the first conception of ethnic nationalism. To the contrary, Ernest Renan famously argued in 1882 against Herder for a conception of nation based on the "will to live together," which was not founded on any ethnic or racial prerequisite. Scientific racist discourse posited the historical existence of "national races" such as German and French, branching from basal races supposed to have existed for millennia, such as the "Aryan race", and believed political boundaries should mirror these supposed racial ones.

Craniometry and physical anthropology

Dutch scholar Pieter Camper (1722-89) was one of the first theorists of craniometry, the measure of skulls, which he used to justify racial differences. In 1770, he invented in one of his numerous memoirs the concept of the "facial angle", a measure meant to determine intelligence among various species. According to this technique, a "facial angle" was formed by drawing two lines: one horizontally from the nostril to the ear; and the other perpendicularly from the advancing part of the upper jawbone to the most prominent part of the forehead. Camper claimed that antique statues presented an angle of 90°, Europeans of 80°, Black people of 70° and the orangutan of 58°, thus displaying a hierarchic and racist view of mankind, based on a decadent conception of history. These scientific racist researchs were continued by Étienne Geoffroy Saint-Hilaire (1772-1844) and Paul Broca (1824-80).

Samuel George Morton (1799-1851), one of the inspirator of physical anthropology, collected hundreds of human skulls from all over the world and started trying to find a way to classify them according to some logical criteria. Influenced by the common racist theories of his time, he claimed that he could judge the intellectual capacity of a race by the cranial capacity (the measure of the volume of the interior of the skull). A large skull meant a large brain and high intellectual capacity, and a small skull indicated a small brain and decreased intellectual capacity.

By studying these skulls he decided at what point Caucasians stopped being Caucasians, and at what point Negroes began. Morton had many skulls from ancient Egypt, and concluded that the ancient Egyptians were not African, but were white. His two major monographs were the Crania Americana (1839), An Inquiry into the Distinctive Characteristics of the Aboriginal Race of America and Crania Aegyptiaca (1844). In Crania Americana, he claimed that the mean cranial capacity of the skulls of Whites was 87 in³ (1,425 cm³), while that of Blacks was 78 in³ (1,278 cm³). Based on the measurement of 144 skulls of Native Americans, he reported a figure of 82 in³ (1,344 cm³) [sic].

William Z. Ripley's map of the "cephalic index" in Europe, from The Races of Europe (1899).

In 1873, Paul Broca (1824-1880), founder of the Anthropological Society of Paris in 1859, found the same pattern described by Samuel Morton's Crania Americana by weighing brains at autopsy. Other historical studies alleging a Black-White difference in brain size include Bean (1906), Mall, (1909), Pearl, (1934) and Vint (1934).

Stephen Jay Gould (1941-2002), an American paleontologist, evolutionary biologist and historian of science, studied from a historical perspective these craniometric works in The Mismeasure of Man (1981). He showed that Samuel Morton had fudged data and "overpacked" the skulls with filler in order to justify his racist opinions.

Scientific racism in the Svecoman movement in 19th century Finland
Main articles: Language strife, Svecoman, and Fennoman

A language strife developed in the Grand Duchy of Finland in the 19th century, supported by Finnish nationalists, the Fennomans, which aimed at raising the Finnish language from peasant-status to the position of a national language and status. These were opposed by other Finnish people, called Svecomans and best represented by the linguist Axel Olof Freudenthal (1836-1911), who defended the use of the Swedish language against Finnish.

Svecomans were influenced by Herder, Gobineau, Blumenbach (1752-1840) and others racialist theorists, and thus considered that Finland was separated into two discrete "races," one speaking Finnish, and the other, superior one, assimilated to the "Germanic race," spoke Swedish. The racial theory was finally disproven by genetics: the genetics of Finnish-speaking and Swedish-speaking Finns do not differ from each other.

Scientific racism and eugenics

Madison Grant's The Passing of the Great Race (1916) was described by Stephen Jay Gould as "the most influential tract of American scientific racism." Grant's Nordic theory was embraced in Germany by the racial hygiene movement in the 1920s-30s. The term itself of Rassenhygiene was coined by Alfred Ploetz (1860-1940) in Racial Hygiene Basics (1895). Ploetz founded the German Society for Racial Hygiene in 1905. The German Racial hygiene movement advocated selective breeding, compulsory sterilizations and a close alignment of public health with eugenics.

Racial hygiene was historically tied to traditional notions of public health, but usually with an enhanced emphasis on heredity — what philosopher and historian Michel Foucault has called state racism. The use of social measures to attempt to preserve or enhance biological characteristics was first proposed by Francis Galton (1822-1911) in his early work, starting in 1869.

He then coined the term "eugenics." A statistician before all, Galton had created the statistical concepts of regression and correlation and discovered regression toward the mean, and was the first to apply statistical methods to the study of human differences and "inheritance of intelligence". He introduced the use of questionnaires and surveys for collecting data on sets of populations, which he needed for genealogical and biographical works and for his anthropometric studies. Galton also founded psychometrics (the science of measuring mental faculties) and differential psychology (the branch of psychology that concerns itself with psychological differences between people, rather than on common traits).

As scientific racism, eugenics became very popular in the early 20th century, and both were main influence of the Nazi racial policies as well as their eugenics program. Galton, Karl Pearson (1857-1936) and Walter F. R. Weldon (1860-1906) founded in 1901 the Biometrika scientific journal, which promoted the study of biometrics and the statistical analysis of hereditary phenomena. Charles Davenport (1866-1944) was involved for a short time in the review.

He published in 1929 Race Crossing in Jamaica, purported to give statistical evidence for biological and cultural degradation following interbreeding between white and black populations. Davenport had connections to Nazi Germany, before and during World War II. in 1939 he wrote a contribution to the festschrift for Otto Reche (1879-1966), who became an important figure within the plan to "remove" those populations considered "inferior" in eastern Germany.[16]

Scientific racism and popular racist ideology
Further information: Human zoo

A caricature of Saartjie Baartman, called the Hottentot Venus. Born to a Khoisan family, she was displayed in London in the early 19th century that sparked the indignation of the African Association. She was examined by French anatomist Georges Cuvier and then died in 1815. Her remains were conserved until 1974 at the Musée de l'Homme and have since been returned to South Africa on Nelson Mandela's request.

Human zoos were an important means of bolstering "popular racism", while being at the same time an object of anthropology and anthropometry; they were sometimes called "ethnographic exhibitions" or "Negro villages." Starting in the 1870s, they were common until World War II, and the concept has even survived until the 21st century. Ethnographic zoos were often predicated on unilinealism and a version of Social Darwinism. A number of them placed indigenous people (particularly Africans) in a continuum somewhere between the great apes and human beings of European descent.

Fundamental to any scientific racist theory and white supremacist views, theories of unilineal evolution claimed that Western culture was the contemporary pinnacle of social evolution. It was upheld by famous thinkers such as August Comte (1798-1857), Edward Burnett Tylor (1832-1917), Lewis Henry Morgan (1818-1881), and Herbert Spencer (1820-1903). Social evolutionism represented an attempt to formalize social thinking along scientific lines, later influenced by the biological theory of evolution.

This sort of work continued through the early twentieth century, but soon intelligence testing became a new source for comparisons between races.

Poorly designed studies appeared to justify the claim that "Negroes," as well as Eastern Europeans and Jews, were physically and mentally inferior to whites from Northern Europe. In the United States, eugenicists such as Harry H. Laughlin and Madison Grant sought to justify policies such as compulsory sterilization and immigration restriction by using scientific research to show that certain populations of people were physically or mentally inadequate.

Compulsory sterilization programs were active until the 1960s and even further on. In France, Nobel prize winner Alexis Carrel, who founded the ancestor of the present INED demographic institute, followed a similar discourse, in particular under the Vichy regime. However, Vichy didn't implement any eugenics programs.

SO THATS WHY I BELIEVE THAT, ARIEANN...(or is it really Aryan?! )

As I wrote before..."whites are the ones who created all this crap about 'race.' "

Before you can change the world, you first must learn about what has happened in the past in order to NOT repeat it again.

You must learn how we got to the point that we are at now.
You must learn how you came to be, why you believe certain things, why you think and act like you do.
You can't just jump over history and onto solutions.
That has been proven to not work time and time again.

The first thing you learn in diversity your OWN history.
After reading the info about "the development of race," most whites have related that they "didn't know that race was first used to distinguish between European aristocrats and poor European peasants...and then onto various European ethnic groups, hundreds of years before it was used to subordinate people in Asia, Africa, etc.

In the early 1800s, theories began to appear in America that sought to distinguish a racial difference between elite whites and poor whites...which had been done earlier in Europe. (see neoteny and recapitulation)

Wanna be the change you want to see? Learn about YOUR order to change the course of future history.

Jordan Mardan
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 68 (view)
Race: The Power of An Illusion
Posted: 8/19/2007 8:21:02 AM
Don Q: The whole race concept is dead and gone. Thank God! and those that think otherwise are usually suffering from a lack of education.

Jordan: Exactly!!!!
That was proven by science as early as the 1960s, and more recently by the Human Genome Project and other sources.

One thing, though. Many people in higher education still use "race" as research variable, which is why so many continue to believe that "race" is a predictor in a number of things.

In other words, racists believe that "if they know your race, then they can predict how far you might go in school, whether you'll invest in the stockmarket (can you imagine one of our local TV stations reporting that last year?! simply ridiculous ), etc., etc., etc.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 67 (view)
Race: The Power of An Illusion
Posted: 8/19/2007 8:12:38 AM
criss: White population living in poverty: 15%
Black population living in poverty: 25%

Jordan: 15% of whites is a much larger number than 25% of Blacks, dummy.

Now if I had written that "25% of those living in poverty are Black," then your reiteration of my stats might mean something."...... 8>)
Your statistics say a lot.

criss: PS Are you here only to talk about racial issues? You seem to be completely obsessed with race.

Jordan: Yes, I am.
Soooooo...."if Im obsessed then most whites are completely in denial about "racial" issues.

If you're hanging out on this site like I am, I think you need to look in the mirror and say "get a life."

I'm usually here about 2 hours of the 168 total hours in a week (7 X 24) what the hell are you talking about?!

Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 66 (view)
Race: The Power of An Illusion
Posted: 8/19/2007 8:00:43 AM
arieann: Jorden Mardan, Is it an illusion or are you obsessed with race issues. I just looked at you last 25 post. Every thread deals with race issues. Don't you have other issues you would like to share. There is a whole world of problems other than race issues, or do they not effect you? You must be the luckiest man alive

Jordan: "Obsessed?!
I guess if I had posted 1,000 messages about sports, you would NOT have written that, would you?!

As a social justice activist, equalizer, diversity workshop consult/facilitator...I deal with the isms: classism, racism, sexism, anti-semitism, etc.

The isms impact hundreds of issues, such as employment (hiring and promotions), where one can reside, redlining of certain neighborhoods by banks, discipline/ suspensions/expulsion in schools, "racial" disparities in capital punishment, racial profiling, lack of multicultural curriculums in K-12 and college, capping or removal of toxic dumps, human experimentation for pharmaceuticals, how doctors & other medical staff interact with you, ease or difficulty of inter-ethnic dating and marriage,
access to opportunities, acute or chronic genocide, and on and on and on.

But what business is it of yours WHAT I post on, dammit?!

Why did you add me to your Favorites list?

arieann: If you notice, you spelled dunnrunn2's name wrong. You added a "g" at the end of his name. Now,what makes you qualified?

Jordan: "Jordan" is a real name while dunnrunnin is something made up.
If you look back through many of my messages, I frequently make a pun or double entendre out of other users' names.

So f*ckoff.

I find it very "interesting" and quite telling that since you cannot engage in any intellectual exchanges, you resort to trying to highlight this type of bullcrap as your PRIMARY topic in your messages.

Obsessed with race: Think I'll make that the next title of a new thread.


Jordan Mardan

Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 30 (view)
Individual identity vs. ethnic/racial identity
Posted: 8/18/2007 8:11:30 PM
Sempre: I invite you, Jordan, as I invite every individual who reads this post, to start treating people as individuals, regardless of their race.

Jordan: I'm already doing that.
However, in order to discuss, examine, and/or provide remedies to institutional or systemic-based problems, we have to use macro-level terms, such as Asian Americans or Latino Americans.

The problem with your position is that it "ignores the role of culture."

You cannot separate or disentangle an individual from her/his culture....unless affirmative or intentional action is undertaken by the person to de-program her/himself from cultural conditioning.
The way people think, act, etc. all stems from their cultures.

So if one is to start viewing others as individuals rather than as members of a group," that would go against the grain of Western or elite white culture....the very one who started all this mess about "race."
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 29 (view)
Individual identity vs. ethnic/racial identity
Posted: 8/18/2007 7:39:22 PM
hozo: Yes, but its sort of decieving stated that way.

Jordan: My statements were in response to someone claiming "that it was a double standard to have all Black colleges."

I merely provided the reason as to their origins, which was "exclusion by law from attending white schools ."

It's not my fault that the schools continue to be known as "HBCUs."
Are the names "CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, etc. "deceiving?!"

hozo: When you look at the percentages and numbers of most of these colleges, you will generally see that the mix is proportionate to the region. The black population in West Virginia is much less than other states. hence the small percentage at Bluefield State. The percentages mirror the general population mix of that given region, usually.

Jordan: I wonder how many of those schools are giving financial aid for minorities to white students.

hozo: I think that is changing SLOWLY. I work at a small private exclusive college in Northern West Virginia and I see change. It may still not be visible to blacks, but regionally, there is a greater mix of other minorities in administration here and at other local and regional colleges. The "white rule" is being slowly diluted, even in this "white cracker" part of the world.

Jordan: Hard to say because even though we have Black administrators here at the Univ. of KY, the curriculum is still overwhelmingly white and/or based on Western ideology.

Hence, if all the racists/sexists, etc.-ists, were somehow killed off, the curriculum would soon re-produce them.

However, the numbers of African American Studies, Latino Studies, and Asian American Studies, and Women's Studies departments/programs are growing at various colleges throughout the nation.

As an undergrad I obtained a Minor in African American Studies here at the Univ. of KY.
I think UK has a little over 26,000 students, with "Groups of Color" comprising about 10% of that number.

The aforementioned "Studies" programs probably makeup less than 2% of the total number of degrees, Minors, etc. offered here.
And very, very few white students are enrolling in these programs, except for Women's Studies.
I know when I obtained that Minor, there were only maybe 2 white students in each class, and they were usually white women.

If the changes that Sempre would like to see are going to occur, more "out-of-the-box" thinking is going to have to occur, and the so-called ivory towers are very resistant to change.

Many white-dominated colleges give a lot of lip service to diversity, but once you look below the surface, it's business as usual.

And, of course, any type of "new" information added by inclusive researchers is quickly labeled as "revisionist history" by the conservatives.

Not long ago the History Channel broadcast "Custer's Last Stand: The Indians' Version."

I believe once every group has the opportunity to provide their narratives to the information that whites have long controlled, we'll be able to obtain a more accurate version of both historical and contemporary events.

Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 28 (view)
Individual identity vs. ethnic/racial identity
Posted: 8/18/2007 7:26:58 PM
leewells: You have to be kidding me right? Are you serious?
You know, you really need to sit back and take a look at yourself from that post. Its not the lady posting that who was racist, its YOU whom WANTS that lady to be racist.

Jordan: I NEVER wrote anything about the non-capitalization "being racist."

That's just an inaccurate ASSumption you jumped to.

No use in addressing the rest of your message because it's sitting on a faulty foundation.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 1344 (view)
Why Do I See More Caucasian Men Dating Asian Women?
Posted: 8/16/2007 8:34:22 PM
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 65 (view)
Race: The Power of An Illusion
Posted: 8/16/2007 6:08:36 PM
dunrunning: "Jordon, Try this, get off welfare, get a job and then you won't have time to worry about such trival bullSH*t.

Jordan: You can't even spell my name correctly. How are you going to be qualified for something?

Of the approximate 36 million Blacks in the US, about 1/4 or 25% live in poverty.

Of the 180 million whites in the US, about 15% or 27 million live in poverty.
Hence, it looks to me that you ought to be looking in the mirror and making that statement....and when you get done running, perhaps you'll read a book and try to learn something beyond that Rush Limbaugh mess you're posting.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 24 (view)
Individual identity vs. ethnic/racial identity
Posted: 8/16/2007 6:01:42 PM
nervous513: " I have found no evidence that any member of my family deliberately caused harm to anyone of any ethnic background."

Jordan: Likewise...have you found any evidence that members of your family fought against the oppression of other groups of people?!

And if they didn't, that sort of cancels out your statement, doesn't it?!

If one just stands by and does not intervene on behalf of others being mistreated, what does that mean?!

Failure to stop and render aid, right?

Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 23 (view)
Individual identity vs. ethnic/racial identity
Posted: 8/16/2007 5:36:34 PM
The following was written by a "white" woman:

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack

Daily effects of white privilege

Elusive and fugitive
Earned strength, unearned power
"I was taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group"

Peggy McIntosh

Through work to bring materials from women's studies into the rest of the curriculum, I have often noticed men's (white) unwillingness to grant that they are overprivileged, even though they may grant that women are disadvantaged. They may say they will work to women's statues, in the society, the university, or the curriculum, but they can't or won't support the idea of lessening men's. Denials that amount to taboos surround the subject of advantages that men gain from women's disadvantages. These denials protect male privilege from being fully acknowledged, lessened, or ended.

Thinking through unacknowledged male privilege as a phenomenon, I realized that, since hierarchies in our society are interlocking, there are most likely a phenomenon, I realized that, since hierarchies in our society are interlocking, there was most likely a phenomenon of while privilege that was similarly denied and protected.

As a white person, I realized I had been taught about racism as something that puts others at a disadvantage, but had been taught not to see one of its corollary aspects, white privilege, which puts me at an advantage.

I think whites are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege, as males are taught not to recognize male privilege. So I have begun in an untutored way to ask what it is like to have white privilege. I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was "meant" to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools , and blank checks.

Describing white privilege makes one newly accountable. As we in women's studies work to reveal male privilege and ask men to give up some of their power, so one who writes about having white privilege must ask, "having described it, what will I do to lessen or end it?"

After I realized the extent to which men work from a base of unacknowledged privilege, I understood that much of their oppressiveness was unconscious. Then I remembered the frequent charges from women of color that white women whom they encounter are oppressive. I began to understand why we are just seen as oppressive, even when we don't see ourselves that way. I began to count the ways in which I enjoy unearned skin privilege and have been conditioned into oblivion about its existence.

My schooling gave me no training in seeing myself as an oppressor, as an unfairly advantaged person, or as a participant in a damaged culture. I was taught to see myself as an individual whose moral state depended on her individual moral will. My schooling followed the pattern my colleague Elizabeth Minnich has pointed out: whites are taught to think of their lives as morally neutral, normative, and average, and also ideal, so that when we work to benefit others, this is seen as work that will allow "them" to be more like "us."

Daily effects of white privilege

I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions.

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

Elusive and fugitive

I repeatedly forgot each of the realizations on this list until I wrote it down. For me white privilege has turned out to be an elusive and fugitive subject. The pressure to avoid it is great, for in facing it I must give up the myth of meritocracy. If these things are true, this is not such a free country; one's life is not what one makes it; many doors open for certain people through no virtues of their own.

In unpacking this invisible knapsack of white privilege, I have listed conditions of daily experience that I once took for granted. Nor did I think of any of these perquisites as bad for the holder. I now think that we need a more finely differentiated taxonomy of privilege, for some of these varieties are only what one would want for everyone in a just society, and others give license to be ignorant, oblivious, arrogant, and destructive.

I see a pattern running through the matrix of white privilege, a patter of assumptions that were passed on to me as a white person. There was one main piece of cultural turf; it was my own turn, and I was among those who could control the turf. My skin color was an asset for any move I was educated to want to make. I could think of myself as belonging in major ways and of making social systems work for me. I could freely disparage, fear, neglect, or be oblivious to anything outside of the dominant cultural forms. Being of the main culture, I could also criticize it fairly freely.

In proportion as my racial group was being made confident, comfortable, and oblivious, other groups were likely being made unconfident, uncomfortable, and alienated. Whiteness protected me from many kinds of hostility, distress, and violence, which I was being subtly trained to visit, in turn, upon people of color.

For this reason, the word "privilege" now seems to me misleading. We usually think of privilege as being a favored state, whether earned or conferred by birth or luck. Yet some of the conditions I have described here work systematically to over empower certain groups. Such privilege simply confers dominance because of one's race or sex.

Earned strength, unearned power

I want, then, to distinguish between earned strength and unearned power conferred privilege can look like strength when it is in fact permission to escape or to dominate. But not all of the privileges on my list are inevitably damaging. Some, like the expectation that neighbors will be decent to you, or that your race will not count against you in court, should be the norm in a just society. Others, like the privilege to ignore less powerful people, distort the humanity of the holders as well as the ignored groups.

We might at least start by distinguishing between positive advantages, which we can work to spread, and negative types of advantage, which unless rejected will always reinforce our present hierarchies. For example, the feeling that one belongs within the human circle, as Native Americans say, should not be seen as privilege for a few. Ideally it is an unearned entitlement. At present, since only a few have it, it is an unearned advantage for them. This paper results from a process of coming to see that some of the power that I originally say as attendant on being a human being in the United States consisted in unearned advantage and conferred dominance.

I have met very few men who truly distressed about systemic, unearned male advantage and conferred dominance. And so one question for me and others like me is whether we will be like them, or whether we will get truly distressed, even outraged, about unearned race advantage and conferred dominance, and, if so, what we will do to lessen them. In any case, we need to do more work in identifying how they actually affect our daily lives.

Many, perhaps most, of our white students in the United States think that racism doesn't affect them because they are not people of color; they do not see "whiteness" as a racial identity. In addition, since race and sex are not the only advantaging systems at work, we need similarly to examine the daily experience of having age advantage, or ethnic advantage, or physical ability, or advantage related to nationality, religion, or sexual orientation.

Difficulties and angers surrounding the task of finding parallels are many. Since racism, sexism, and heterosexism are not the same, the advantages associated with them should not be seen as the same. In addition, it is hard to disentangle aspects of unearned advantage that rest more on social class, economic class, race, religion, sex, and ethnic identity that on other factors. Still, all of the oppressions are interlocking, as the members of the Combahee River Collective pointed out in their "Black Feminist Statement" of 1977.

One factor seems clear about all of the interlocking oppressions. They take both active forms, which we can see, and embedded forms, which as a member of the dominant groups one is taught not to see. In my class and place, I did not see myself as a racist because I was taught to recognize racism only in individual acts of meanness by members of my group, never in invisible systems conferring unsought racial dominance on my group from birth.

Disapproving of the system won't be enough to change them. I was taught to think that racism could end if white individuals changed their attitude. But a "white" skin in the United States opens many doors for whites whether or not we approve of the way dominance has been conferred on us. Individual acts can palliate but cannot end, these problems.

To redesign social systems we need first to acknowledge their colossal unseen dimensions. The silences and denials surrounding privilege are the key political surrounding privilege are the key political tool here. They keep the thinking about equality or equity incomplete, protecting unearned advantage and conferred dominance by making these subject taboo.

Most talk by whites about equal opportunity seems to me now to be about equal opportunity to try to get into a position of dominance while denying that systems of dominance exist.

It seems to me that obliviousness about white advantage, like obliviousness about male advantage, is kept strongly inculturated in the United States so as to maintain the myth of meritocracy, the myth that democratic choice is equally available to all. Keeping most people unaware that freedom of confident action is there for just a small number of people props up those in power and serves to keep power in the hands of the same groups that have most of it already.

Although systemic change takes many decades, there are pressing questions for me and, I imagine, for some others like me if we raise our daily consciousness on the perquisites of being light-skinned. What will we do with such knowledge? As we know from watching men, it is an open question whether we will choose to use unearned advantage, and whether we will use any of our arbitrarily awarded power to try to reconstruct power systems on a broader base.

Peggy McIntosh is associate director of the Wellesley Collage Center for Research on Women. This essay is excerpted from Working Paper 189. "White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming To See Correspondences through Work in Women's Studies" (1988), by Peggy McIntosh; available for $4.00 from the Wellesley College Center for Research on Women, Wellesley MA 02181 The working paper contains a longer list of privileges.

This excerpted essay is reprinted from the Winter 1990 issue of Independent School.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 22 (view)
Individual identity vs. ethnic/racial identity
Posted: 8/16/2007 5:31:08 PM
Sempre, if you truly "want to live in a world where "race"/ethnicity is of no more importance than the color of one's hair or eyes...."

Jordan: Eye and hair color go along with skin color: blue eyes and blonde hair is a favorite among whites, right?! order to get to that world where "race" is NOT important, first you have to understand how this world came to be like it is.

Thus...I recommend that you check out the following, which can be sampled or bought at or other online retailers:

Unraveling the White Cocoon, by Jeff Hitchcock

8 available Used for $11.99

The Possessive Investment in Whiteness: How White People Profit from Identity Politics, by George Lipsitz (Paperback - Jun 1998)

19 Used & new from $6.99

White by Law: The Legal Construction of Race (Critical America Series), by Ian F. Lopez (Paperback - Aug 1, 1997)
Buy new: $21.00, $19.95 16 Used & new from $4.20

Learning to Be White: Money, Race, and God in America, by Thandeka (Paperback - Nov 2000)
Buy new: $24.95 $19.35 20 Used & new from $13.69
I definitely recommend Thandeka’s book for those wanting to learn “how you became white” rather than human.

Understanding White Privilege: Creating Pathways to Authentic Relationships Across Race (Teaching/Learning for Social Justice), by Frances E. Kendall (Hardcover - Mar 21, 2006)
Buy new: $125.00 11 Used & new from $114.44

I had the privilege of attending a "white privilege" workshop at the Univ. of Kentucky in 1998 or thereabouts led by Frances Kendall, who operates out of Riverside, California.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 21 (view)
Individual identity vs. ethnic/racial identity
Posted: 8/16/2007 5:03:56 PM
On Wednesday evening I was reminded of this thread while watching Oprah.

The guest was actress Ellen Burstyn (white), and she discussed a book she has written.

She said that the most important thing that she has been working on over the years is discovering her real self as opposed to her conditioned self, meaning how society has molded and fashioned "her" choices/preferences.

As I've noted elsewhere, most people have great difficulty untangling their individual self from their "racial" (for those who believe in race) self or ethnic self, particularly white Americans...and I have several books on this and related topics.
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 20 (view)
Individual identity vs. ethnic/racial identity
Posted: 8/16/2007 4:58:02 PM
SempreLibra: When I mess up in my own life, I own up for my acts - but only for my own acts. No one can be held responsible for what other people did - distant past, recent past, or present - simply because other people share the same skin color with him.

Jordan: I asked "what are you doing about current dirty laundry?"

Without even going into racism, what are you as a female doing about sexism in employment, the way female rape victims are treated in court, the fact more women are killed or injured from domestic violence than from assaults/robberies by strangers, and on and on?
Joined: 4/22/2005
Msg: 19 (view)
Individual identity vs. ethnic/racial identity
Posted: 8/16/2007 4:52:45 PM
veevee: We aren't allowed to have a culture really here that is segregated...else it's considered racist. There are black colleges but there can't be white colleges ya know. :P

Jordan: Not even close to being right.
There is a plethora of white cultures in the US, also within and between the lower, middle, and upper-classes of whites.

Historically Black Colleges & Un iversities or HBCUs were built during a time when Blacks could NOT attend white colleges.

However, today many of the HBCUs have anywhere from 20-50% white students.
What's more, white students at these institutions are allowed to apply for financial aid as a minority.

After Brown v. Board, white colleges/universities had to admit Black students, which began the decrease of Blacks at HBCUs and an increase of whites at such schools.

The overwhelming majority of colleges/universities throughout the amerikkka are indeed white schools.
What is the criteria for a white school?
--all white or nealy all white administration
--curriculum solely focused on elite white American or European achievements/
etc. etc. etc.

You all have allowed the white supremacist organizations to take over and claim "white pride" as their own, which is why other groups see "white pride" as being racist....because everytime you see those words they are accompanied by Neo Nazi or other racist symbols.
Whose fault is that? Certainly NOT People of Color (African-/Asian-/Latino-/ or "Native" Americans).

I provided a website in a prior message where white culture (s) is described.

Besides the breakdown into various European ethnic groups, there is a distinctive white American culture.

But why is it that most whites have a difficult time seeing it?!
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