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 Author Thread: Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 146 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/28/2009 12:14:49 AM
raceme,
Funny--my friends tell me my sense of humor's one of my strongest points. But if you were joking, I missed it. A while ago, in an unguarded moment, I very foolishly tried to explain where some of my views come from. As I knew would happen, several women here decided that most of what I'd related must have been my own doing. I know, as surely as I know I have two eyes, that is dead wrong.

Not that I'd ever take issue with another lawyer, but there's a big logical flaw in what your date told you. It assumes that the guy can know beforehand that he'll enjoy having dinner with someone he'll enjoy communicating with. I'm sure in your case, that was all true. But it ignores the possibility that someone can return your e-mails, laugh and talk very nicely on the phone, and agree to meet, while being completely insincere. When the guy realizes what's happened, too late, I can tell you it does not make either the dinner or the communication enjoyable.

You and most of the women on these forums may not want to believe it, but more than a few of your sisters apparently lurk on these sites mostly to exploit or spite men. And have learned how to set guys up, by hiding their true colors until you meet them in person. The only thing you need to do wrong is remind them of the ex they hate, or make them imagine you've got it coming for some other crazy reason. Don't get me wrong--I've gone out with real sweethearts, too, ladies I had a lot of respect for, and some of them have been girlfriends. So, I know very well not all women are anything like these harridans.

While you're driving home, having spent a tidy sum on a cold, unsmiling number who could teach a hooker about being detached and synthetic, you keep thinking. About manicuring, shaving close, flossing, showering, shampooing, drying your hair, picking just the right shirt, pants, shoes, belt, and maybe a tie, driving so she wouldn't have to, making sure to be on time, smiling, complimenting her, and expecting nothing but pleasant conversation--while thinking of a kiss or two and a second date, if you hit it off well--all those things you did earlier run through your mind. You tell yourself to forget it and look forward to the next time. And then it happens again, same theme, different details. Maybe I shouldn't let it get to me--and most of the time, I don't. They're not worth it. I'm a man, but I'm also flesh and blood--and once in a while, it stings.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 137 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/27/2009 8:21:11 PM
raceme,
First, thanks for the compliment. But I need to figure out what does and doesn't need to be polished? I'm not sure just what you mean--but if you're assuming I'm doing something inappropriate when I go out with women, you're mistaken. And I need to hear cues about women I should or shouldn't waste time on? I don't see how you could possibly know that.

Please don't make the mistake of assuming that, because I've gotten into heated debates or used sarcasm with women on these forums, I'd act that way on a date. I wouldn't dream of it--it's a completely different setting. There, I'm thinking other things--all the way from how I'll steal a kiss (if I like her, and the idea doesn't seem unwelcome) to how to wrap things up as fast but as gracefully as possible (if I think she's just not a nice person.)
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 130 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/27/2009 6:28:47 PM
It's been interesting to read all you ladies' views on this subject. I think I understand most of what I've read, but I'm not sure. I'm sure it's no surprise I have an opinion on this, but for this once, I'll keep it to myself.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 111 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/25/2009 3:57:05 PM
I wasn't talking to you, you damned yellow mutt. Go die in a dark place.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 110 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/25/2009 10:59:34 AM
I'd like to think you're joking, as you know very well I was.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 146 (view)
 
Men that brag about money in an attempt to attract woman.
Posted: 1/24/2009 11:36:55 PM
They deserve each other. It's been interesting--looks like I'll be away from here for a while. See ya.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 98 (view)
 
To those who've been in threesomes: WAS IT WORTH IT?
Posted: 1/24/2009 7:02:20 PM
Both my last two gf's wanted to do threesomes. One knew a bi lady who'd told her to let her know the next time she had a boyfriend, so she could join in. My gf offered to call her, but I felt like my loyalty was being tested. So I said no. My other gf wanted to have a guy she knew join me, but I wasn't interested. She got pretty steamed about that, but I just didn't want to share her with some other guy. Still, we still were able to do some things she'd never dreamed about in her Catholic girls' school. One day, she felt the need to say ten "Hail Mary's" afterwards.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 159 (view)
 
Apologize for what exactly?
Posted: 1/24/2009 6:44:10 PM
That was my point--BOTH people involved should apologize, if they care about each other. But where is it written that whatever happens, and whoever was at fault, only the man should apologize? If any of you ladies believe that's fair or right, I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding a man who'll play it your way. If you do, I hope you're happy with each other.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 152 (view)
 
-Apologize then RUN.
Posted: 1/24/2009 5:58:19 PM
What would concern me the most is that she wouldn't apologize for something she said was her fault. Either she didn't really mean that, or she doesn't think she should apologize when she's wrong. What's next--run over your foot in the driveway, then scream at you for not getting out of the way of her car? But you know best.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 59 (view)
 
What kind of profiles do you like?
Posted: 1/24/2009 5:38:25 PM
It's always nice to see one that the lady took some time with--especially if it tells me something about her interests, hopes, plans, etc. Red flags: claims that they're intelligent, honest, virtuous, etc. I'd rather make those calls myself.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 55 (view)
 
What does dating something mean to you?
Posted: 1/23/2009 11:34:17 PM
The OP asked if you should just date each other, or be dishonest and date other people too. And that's where she lost me--why should those be the only alternatives? There's nothing wrong with both of you dating other people also. And if that were what they agreed to do, I can't see why that would be at all dishonest.

I don't think anyone has a claim on another person just because they've dated each other. If they agree not to date other people, of course that changes things. Then, it would be dishonest of either one to date someone else in secret. But no one's obligated to keep dating a person exclusively if that person no longer treats them well. I think you just explain how you feel and why, and then start seeing other people.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 121 (view)
 
Men that brag about money in an attempt to attract woman.
Posted: 1/23/2009 7:08:50 AM
This is sort of OT, but since the conversation had turned to physics, I thought I'd pass it along. I read an article in the May, 2008 Scientific American that really struck me. It's "Does Time Run Backward in Other Universes?" by Sean Carroll. It's well written, and well worth reading.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 78 (view)
 
In the jungle, the mighty jungle...
Posted: 1/23/2009 6:16:17 AM
Sorry for the discursions--I'll try to stay on topic from now on.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 75 (view)
 
In the jungle, the mighty jungle...
Posted: 1/23/2009 1:47:21 AM
Pancake turner? My goodness! I was only thinking of drive shafts and rear ends! I had no idea anyone would think . . . well . . . you know . . . . As far as that goes, I once went out with a lady who said she liked "Wesson lessons." She told me she usually gave them in her garage, because the floor was so smooth. Being a somewhat naive 17, I didn't understand what she meant. She offered to show me, but I told her I had homework to do. I left, went straight home, took a cold shower, and hit the books.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 73 (view)
 
In the jungle, the mighty jungle...
Posted: 1/23/2009 12:14:55 AM
Shore hope not. They done one a' them on ol' Delbert Earl, on a counta he just keeled over stone dead at age 21 while his class was taken a math test. This was about four years back and it still hawnts me. Del was always special--they say he was the oldest nineth grader ever in this county. The docs said he just plain over heated an' cooked hisself--they think from addin' an' multiplyin' so hard. When they carved him up, or what ever they do, they found his brain was about as big as a sheeps. All the rest inside his ears was real thick bone. Anyway they took the brain to the state hospital, and I heard they've got 'er pickled in a glass jar some place in the basement.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 71 (view)
 
In the jungle, the mighty jungle...
Posted: 1/22/2009 10:59:24 PM
Aw, shoot, seems like you womenfolk take everythin' so durn serious! I was just a-funnin', but y'all commence ta talkin' 'bout ann-vils an' ray-peers, an' carvin' folks up! Like to give me the willies, just a-hearin' all that. Some of us pore folk cain't afford to go takin' our cars to no grease monkey each time they act up.

I dont mind the work atall, no, it aint that. Its just that a couple years back my cuzin Curtiss Wayne done let the ole Ford slip off the blocks while I was a-workin' under 'er. That big ole axle smacked me a good 'un across my haid. He called some buddies and' they tried ta lift 'er up, but they wuz all too messed up. An' the onliest jack aroun' was plumb broke. So they smeared about a pounda axle grease on my haid an' used th' ole John Dear ta drag me outa there. Ever since, my haid's got a big ol'creese in 'er an' I ain't real sharp like I useta be.

But I can still re-build a motor or a tranny with the best of 'em. An' yeah, I know I mite havta do it over agin if I get 'er in backward. Haw, haw, big deal--I just flip 'er over an' try'er agin. What's a few minutes wasted when were talkin' 'bout QUALITY work??
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 103 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/22/2009 7:49:34 PM
My thanks to all the ladies who clarified the "two-way street" issue. You said the things I'd expect any good person to say. They're just what I remember old girlfriends doing.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 64 (view)
 
In the jungle, the mighty jungle...
Posted: 1/22/2009 7:19:17 PM
Can change her own oil! That probably places you in about the 95th percentile of American women. I certainly hope this heresy doesn't spread any further, or Jiffy Lube will be in trouble!
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 60 (view)
 
In the jungle, the mighty jungle...
Posted: 1/22/2009 2:28:14 AM
If they're anything like my sister, what most women know about cars is something like this: The front end has white lights, and you usually point it in that direction. The other end has red lights, and the place they put the gas in is someplace back there. When you get groceries, there's a space for them back by the red lights, and you can open it with a key. You put it in "D" to drive, and in "R" to back up. (I don't know why they had to use "R" for "back up," but just memorize it.)
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 93 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/21/2009 10:53:35 PM
liley, we don't know one another, so I hope you don't take this as ironic or sarcastic. I don't mean it at all that way. I'm just curious to know--in your mind--how the kind of dating or courting you wish existed is "a two way street?" I must have a blind spot--I just can't see what the woman does for the man in this process. I often feel I'm doing all the work, without knowing why I should be.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 474 (view)
 
California women: fact or myth?
Posted: 1/21/2009 10:09:28 AM
Who nu? Guess I'm no ∑--I'll sit in the back rho.

Calling it that might not render Caesar his due. The two never crossed paths, and Caesar's cut was brutal indeed. Bes-ides, he was cut earlier, in March.

Those blooming flowers! Isn't that just their style--lots of tulips together, but so few forget-me-nots! If those Latin lovers could talk, they'd be chanting, "Am-o, am-as, Ah'm-at it again!"
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 32 (view)
 
Read any good books lately?
Posted: 1/20/2009 5:25:09 PM
I've got two going. One is a light little tome called "The Mind of Jihad." It's excellent, and I'm learning a lot about a subject I happen to be interested in, but it's pretty tough going. I can only digest about a third of a chapter at one sitting. Next time, I switch to "Champagne for One," one of Rex Stout's old Nero Wolfe mysteries.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 47 (view)
 
Government bail-out plan
Posted: 1/20/2009 3:08:01 PM
Ace, I think if you check, you'll find that defense spending (not just for Iraq, etc., but in total) is only about 5% of GDP. That's a fraction of what we spend on largely ineffective federal social engineering. As the ship of state tries to make speed, these rewarmed New Deal programs are like a half-raised anchor it has to drag through the water.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 471 (view)
 
California women: fact or myth?
Posted: 1/20/2009 2:14:40 PM
Men worth their stigma? Oh, I get it . . . the "XY."
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 467 (view)
 
California women: fact or myth?
Posted: 1/20/2009 1:59:10 AM
"Guys are usually so picky about looks I don't see where the complaints [about not being able to get gold diggers] come from."

raceme . . .
Not sure what you mean here. It sounds like you're saying that guys shouldn't complain about women who are picky about wealth/earning power, when they themselves are usually so picky about looks. If that's what you're getting at, I understand, but I don't think a parallel can be drawn. It's natural for most people of either sex to feel physical attraction toward some people of the opposite sex. The strength of this attraction and the particular characteristics that affect it obviously vary a lot.

Beyond whatever direct physical attraction one person may have for another, I think it's also natural to feel even more attracted to someone because of their character and virtues, once you know them. Ideally, societies encourage this tendency. Where most women consider men even more desirable because they have traditional male virtues like courage, strength, honor, fairness, mercy, devotion to family, etc., it encourages men to have those virtues. And the converse--where most men consider women even more desirable because they have the corresponding traditional female virtues, it encourages those virtues in women. We still have books and movies that offer children fairy tale images of brave knights and fair princesses; is that a sign that, to the dismay of feminists, many people still want to encourage traditional male and female virtues?

I can understand why many women would be less attracted to a man if he were very poor, because they naturally are concerned about having enough resources to raise and support children. But when a woman insists that a man have far more than it would take to give her children good opportunities, or when she herself could contribute a good income, or when there are no children to support, it strikes me as UNnatural for her to find a man's wealth/earning power his most attractive feature.

Even if I were as wealthy as Bill Gates, I'm sure I wouldn't feel happy or flattered to know that was a big reason my girlfriend/wife was with me. I think it would feel more like keeping a courtesan or concubine around.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 12 (view)
 
In the jungle, the mighty jungle...
Posted: 1/19/2009 1:17:36 AM
How about this? The term has no substantiated meaning, as applied to people. I suspect pseudo-intellectuals have appropriated a term from animal behaviorists, using it (with little or no scientific basis) to explain our own behavior. This "insight" into our social interactions may impress some people at****ail parties as profound, but that doesn't make it any more true.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 76 (view)
 
men asking about your fantasies
Posted: 1/18/2009 2:08:34 AM
It can be fun--once you know each other--to bring up a fantasy in conversation, as something you read about. You can pretend it's just something you thought was interesting, maybe adding that it sounded kind of naughty. Of course, the person you brought it up to knows exactly why you did, and that itself is exciting. It may even happen that as you're both talking about the fantasy, you may feel the need to demonstrate some part of it, to help your partner understand. And that's even more fun--so much fun that you may not want to stop. Talking's a kind of foreplay that's too often overlooked.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 38 (view)
 
What is wrong this generation of people?
Posted: 1/17/2009 10:20:34 AM
I think there's some scientific evidence that using our brains, actively, tends to make them work better. I doubt we really KNOW that, at least not yet. But if it's true, we haven't done this generation of kids any favor by having them spend so much time doing schoolwork on computers, instead of reading and figuring things out in their heads.

It's awe-inspiring to realize what people can create using almost nothing except their own heads. There was a Nobel-winning Japanese physicist who did some of his greatest work (I think in the'20's or '30's) using only a pen, paper and the few very simple instruments he had available. And it's said that when someone once asked Einstein where his office was, he reached into his coat pocket, pulled out a well-used pencil, and said, "It's right here."
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 583 (view)
 
Admit a flaw
Posted: 1/17/2009 9:33:37 AM
I'm sure I have more than one, but if I could fix one right now it would be my habit of inventing excuses for not working out. The funny thing is that I always enjoy it afterwards, when I'm baking away in the sauna. But it's no fun while I'm doing it. I should probably make it a little less strenuous and a little more consistent.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 63 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/16/2009 4:43:50 PM
Mominatrix, I thought I'd put this to rest, and I hadn't planned to say anything more. I already acknowledged it was a mistake to bring up my experiences at all, and I explained why I thought so. Nothing I said was directed at you or anyone else here. I made a point of saying no one on these forums had been involved. I can't stand the victim culture that's developed in this country, and the people who know me well know I'm not one to play that role. But despite all this, it seems like you're upset at me and determined to run me down.

Changing what you do in response to what other people do (or might do) involving you is called learning. If I read that on a certain bike path a dozen riders had been ambushed in the past month, their money and bikes stolen at knifepoint, I might decide to ride on another path. If so, I would have let their behavior dictate mine. So I'd be a victim for deciding not to become a victim? I don't see that.

What you described is rape; it's a felony; it's unconscionable; and whoever did it to you belongs in prison. I only wish I could get a few minutes alone with the bas---ds first. Of course what I described is nothing like that, and I never claimed it was. Say I owned a small business, and almost every time I used the various temp services I found online, the person they sent stole office supplies. If a friend also used these temps, and more than once she'd had one go postal and physically attack people in her office, I'd be very lucky in comparison. But even so, it wouldn't mean that, after having almost all the 25 or 30 temps steal from me, I shouldn't be fed up and ready to use some other kind of service.

Finally--the problem with the "dates" I referred to was not money, but inconsideration and disrespect. Several times I showed up as arranged, but she didn't; one e-mailed back and forth with me and seemed very nice; but when I called her, after a couple minutes she began yelling and trying to pick a fight with me over nothing (I excused myself and hung up); another, just as we were having a good time, seized on my comment that I sometimes like to cook and implied that meant I was gay (I wasn't in the mood to offer to show her otherwise, and when she kept it up I excused myself and left); still another urged me to leave without paying ( I saw her snatch the shop's whole Sunday Times and split, while I stood in line to pay); I was supposed to follow a lady to a cafe, but while I was getting my car, parked way down the block in the only space available, she drove off. Fifty miles round trip, and she never contacted me to explain or apologize. I could give a dozen more examples, but I don't want to, and this isn't the place. I'm just ready to take a break.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 52 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/15/2009 11:55:24 AM
Seems to me the ideal would be to detect any "deal breaker" characteristic on the first coffee date. That way, no one's feelings are likely to be hurt much. If what you see is mostly positive, but not all, then it will probably take another date to see whether you just caught the person on an off day. It feels sort of like a balancing act to me, between leading someone by taking too long, and not allowing enough time to size them up. The one thing I know right away is whether she seems polite and friendly, but maybe that's not something most women look for.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 218 (view)
 
Why men don't marry anymore
Posted: 1/15/2009 9:57:08 AM
Obviously, most men still do marry. If only it were clearer to me what I stand to gain from getting married! A lot of what I read and hear from single women is so bitter and resentful it's hard to imagine they'd have anything to offer a man. I never used to doubt for a moment that women, in general, liked men--but these days, I find myself questioning whether many of them do.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 48 (view)
 
A moral dilemma
Posted: 1/15/2009 4:01:20 AM
Hap, see posts 29 & 30 above--
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 44 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/14/2009 7:09:30 PM
Yes, when I get an email from a woman who interests me, I write back that I'd like to know more about her. But if she should ever take that to mean I want to know more about an interest she mentioned in her profile, I make it a point to delete her immediately. If she can't guess exactly what I meant, why go any further?

I was noting--to someone else, incidentally--something I've never done myself, and very seldom had done to me. It came to mind because it had just happened. You can describe what I said any way you want. He!!, you may be right--and as you say, it's not that big a deal anyway. Certainly not so that I want to say any more about it than I have here. If you do, knock yourself out.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 82 (view)
 
What are some of the material things that you love?
Posted: 1/14/2009 1:48:03 PM
Barbe, Careful . . . we don't know what (he/she/it/they) help(s) WITH . . .
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 46 (view)
 
Visualize Whirled Peas. California Politics
Posted: 1/14/2009 11:19:12 AM
A year or so ago, I heard a social scientist talking about the results of a study he and his colleagues had done. They were from Princeton, or some such prestigious university, so this wasn't National Enquirer-type information. The purpose of the study was to determine the economic impact of illegal immigrants to the U.S. As I recall, it concentrated on California.

The study took into account an illegal immigrant's probable contribution to the public fisc through sales taxes, any declared taxable income, property taxes as included in rent paid, etc. Against this, it estimated costs imposed for education, health care, public safety, road maintenance, public utilities, traffic congestion, harm to air and water quality, etc.

What this research found was that each illegal immigrant represented a net cost of about $25,000 per year to this state. Given the average age of these people and their average life expectancy, that cost would be sustained for about 40 years. And if the study results are accurate, that means each illegal immigrant who comes here and stays will cost the state a total of roughly $1 million. If even 3.5 million of this state's 35+million people (10%) are now illegal immigrants--and that's a very conservative estimate--it's costing the rest of us more than $80 BILLION each year to support them. That's about $2,900 per year for each man, woman, and child in California who is not an illegal immigrant, and we pay it in taxes.

Even a couple years ago, those with a vested interest in ignoring the flagrant violation of federal laws this kind of immigration represents (banks not least among them) were able to silence anyone who objected to it by tarring them as a racist. An age-old cheap trick--when you can't dispute the message, attack the messenger's motives. But that canard's not flying so well today, when more and more Californians see their state going broke just as their personal finances are under siege. It was only a few decades ago that we were the "Golden State," with schools, universities, hospitals, roads, and so on that were the envy of the rest of the country. A lot of us are now wondering how much of the decline in all these things is the result of the costs of servicing an uncontrolled flood of people who have no legal right even to be here.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 77 (view)
 
What are some of the material things that you love?
Posted: 1/14/2009 9:58:25 AM
The he!! of liking good food--which I do, too--is all the time it takes to sweat off the results on the treadmill.

The Italians make a pastry called bombolone, which (maybe it's just as well) I can't find anywhere. They're along the lines of a jelly donut, only better, and about the size of a baseball. The dough is like the old-time donuts, with egg and nutmeg in it, and the center's filled with a vanilla custard sauce. After they're fried, they're rolled in sugar. The first time I cut into one, it was still warm. With a nice cup of coffee to keep it company, it put a big smile on my face!
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 42 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/14/2009 9:32:46 AM
mz taken, I hope to be matchless only in one sense of the word--but in the other sense, absolutely not. Thanks for the good advice. I think you're right about the motivation. What puzzles me is why people even bother to post a profile on a free site, if they're as uninterested as so many seem.

I just had someone answer my initial email, saying she hoped to learn more about me--but when I added a little more info in a second note, she read it and deleted it. (Maybe it's because I left off the explicit anatomical photos I usually send--I think they add a classy, romantic touch.) I wish she'd saved me the time and effort of writing again by not responding to begin with.

I've taken this thing off topic far enough--I'll let someone else run with the ball.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 38 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/14/2009 1:19:27 AM
msflis, A couple thoughts come to mind. First, men often have a steeper hill to climb. Single and divorced women today often start by presuming a guy's a so-and-so, and the burden's on him to prove he's not. To he!! with fairness, kindness, consideration, concern, and all those similar qualities I used to expect (and find) in women when I was 30. I read and hear so much vitriol about men this, and men that, that I think it's more likely than not any given woman I contact distrusts me, or most guys, from the start--whether her profile suggests it or not. If she sees in my profile that I'm an attorney, she KNOWS I'm a liar, as surely as night follows day. I always suspected that, knowing how unethical and dishonorable I am--but I was never sure until a couple people here put me hip to it.

How could women better encourage single men to hit and run--the very behavior they never tire of decrying--than by assuming from the start that most of us are bas---rds? Guys have a saying: "If you've already got the name, you might as well play the game." Want to make men cold and calculating about women? Just be sure, every chance you get, to play them cheap and treat them as unfairly as you can. By doing this, you can also help the anomie, cynicism, emotional detachment, and chilly disregard many of you remember so fondly from your marriages to become the prevailing male attitudes toward eligible women. After all, isn't having a Y chromosome the very definition of original sin ?

Second, like you, I'd much rather get the axe right away. But do you think it's reasonable to expect me to be so preternaturally insightful that I can be positive, within, say, five minutes of meeting someone for the first time, that I'm going to need to convince her of my virtues? If I called a halt to things and left after five or ten minutes because I was sure I'd have to do that, then you'd be saying, "If only he'd give women a fair chance! He's so quick to jump to conclusions--and five minutes of talking with a stranger just isn't enough to decide on."

It seems to me the time you spend over coffee--say three-quarters of an hour or so--is the time you have to decide whether to go any farther. And if I don't want to, I just say, "Thanks, it was nice talking to you," and we both leave. My impression is that many women on these sites aren't nearly as interested in meeting someone as they claim to be. Or maybe even as they think they are. I've never seen anything like this lack of interest in women I've approached in person. But these days I don't work with a lot of single women in my age range, nor am I in school with them. That makes meeting them a hit and miss proposition--and that's why I started trying these sites when I came back from St.Louis to L.A. Except for the interaction on these threads, the game hasn't been worth the candle. It's hardened me, not permanently or even deeply, but in a way I wish it hadn't.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 35 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/13/2009 10:49:05 PM
Sock, Once again, you nailed it. But WHY are so many single women on these sites so impatient, so unwilling to give us a fair chance? I think it's because their nerves get the better of them before enough time has passed to allow them to make a reasonable evaluation of the guy involved. As if sticking one toe in the water for a couple seconds were all they can handle. Does that put pressure on me? Are you kidding? Why, I myself always look forward to convincing someone, within fifteen minutes of meeting her, that her initial presumption that I'm a black-hearted bas---d is wrong, and that I'm really a sensitive, evolved guy she'd love to be around. Who can doubt, even for a second, that the single ladies here envy that role, and only wish they had the chance to do the same with guys?

So, most women on dating sites are too afraid of rejection to make the first move; "oh, no--men are brave, let them do it instead." How convenient, in a liberated 2009, to be able to play--whenever it gives you an out--a helpless female from, say, 1889. OK, no problem, I'll do the pursuing myself. But what if it's also "Oh no--it's too scary to go on not knowing if he really wants me--I'd better just cut things off right here?" And whatever sting of rejection this may cause the guy, how does it harm her? The woman who plays this game can deflect whatever pressure her mother, sister, and girlfriends might apply, by pointing to her half-baked efforts as evidence she's trying her best to meet a man.Yet she knows in her heart she seldom makes a good faith effort. Sed quaere: What's in any of this for me, and how can I do it without feeling like a stupid chump?
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 29 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/13/2009 7:37:07 PM
Mominatrix, I'm well aware many men say those things about women. But I don't, unless I know that's true of a particular woman, nor would I describe myself as bitter. "Cautious" is more like it, sort of like someone who has to reach into a box full of snakes knowing that some of them are poisonous and need no excuse to bite.

I'm also aware that when people don't know all the relevant details about these things, they tend to jump to the same conclusion you did. Logic, schmogic! That's why I've never brought all this up here, and God knows why I did now (temporarily diminished capacity, maybe). Not only does it sound whiny, but it also invites misinterpretation at my expense. Suddenly everyone's a psychologist, the only problem being that they're all dead wrong.

I'd bet a large amount of money that if I were to go into all the details of all the occasions I mentioned (and I don't intend to inflict that on anyone) you'd never dream of applying your adage to me. Maybe I'll turn them into a short story someday. As for looking in the wrong place, I think I may have been--but only by looking on the internet.

I state them pretty clearly in my profile what qualities I'm look for, but like anyone else, I can only make an educated guess as to how close anyone I contact comes to meeting my criteria. I certainly haven't been doing anything different from what I've always done, though. The problem isn't that I've insisted on pursuing 24 year-old centerfold models.

I think I probably would have fared better if I'd denounced my country more, as liberals like to do when we're at war, in the name of patriotism. It seems to make a lot of single women (about 80% of whom in this state identify themselves as liberal) see you as a glamorous, cosmopolitan free spirit who's almost as clever as they are--which wearing a Che Guevara T-shirt, e.g., just can't do any more. And I might have given yoga a favorable mention while I was at it. Oh, I almost forgot the magic word--doing that stuff also tells single women you're an "evolved" man. But who am I kidding--I have to face the fact I'm just not there yet.

Even if only a partly evolved specimen of the Y-type, I've learned to read a clock. And the one here tells me it's time to move on to my feeding trough--yams, apples, and maybe some plantain tonight. I'll be shuffling on now, trying not to drool, break wind, or smack my lips too much, or to drag my knuckles on the ground. THAT must be why my fingernails are always so dirty when I go on dates!
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 25 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/13/2009 6:01:23 PM
Anthropomorphic1,
Thanks for the advice, which I'm sure you mean well. I was pretty sure someone would get the wrong impression, because that's what usually happens when you don't have all the facts. Of course, I do exactly what you're saying, when I've planned to take a real date out to dinner, etc. Then, I fully expect to spend some money, and I like to do it.

But none of these things I mentioned was supposed to be a date. What happened wasn't anything like what you're thinking of, and the problem was never that I felt under pressure. But all that aside, I know better now, and I insist on doing something simple like coffee--even if that means calling everything off.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 23 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/13/2009 4:22:47 PM
MaybeYes,
I guarantee you it's not necessary to have "courtship" to spend lots of money, go to a lot of effort, and get absolutely nothing in return. And yes, it does leave me feeling used. Before anyone can speculate that any grand gestures were my idea, or that I spent money expecting sex in return, and therefore have only myself to blame, let me say there's not a shred of truth to any of that. You must be thinking of some other guy, because that's just not me.

All I ever expected from any woman I've met on an internet dating site was normal courtesy--and if she felt magnanimous, maybe a kind word about the effort I went to to drive to her side of town, pick up the tab, etc. It would have felt so good if these women had insisted on chipping in a little--but I can't think of more than twice that that happened.

I once drove about 25 miles to meet a woman at a hotel bar. I got stuck in awful traffic, and I called to let her know. By the time I arrived, she'd had a couple martinis, and she then spent a couple hours droning on about how, despite having lots of money and a beautiful house, her life had become so demanding since her divorce. Nothing I said interested her for more than a moment. But trying to be gentlemanly and to wrap things up on a good note, I got her a coffee from the bar while she'd gone to the ladies' room. She noticed, but never said thanks, or even smiled--for that or for my picking up the tab, as I expect to do (most of the time, at least) when it's me who did the asking.

I could give you lots more similar examples. And I didn't have to court any of the women involved to feel thoroughly used. That's why it's coffee only now, or at least for as long as I'm doing any internet dating. If she wants a scone with it, it's on her. I hate even to seem cheap, in any situation--but I'm kind of tired of treating women like ladies when they're not.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 21 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/13/2009 3:01:35 PM
Mominatrix, I may have lost a step. But I think you've got me wrong. I wasn't responding to anything you wrote, but to the quotes. I was mostly being facetious, but behind that was a serious point. Why keep approaching a group of people when at best, most of them are indifferent toward you, and at worst dislike you?

I won't bother to go into details, but the amount of totally unjustified abuse I've received from women on this and other dating sites (not in these forums) surprises me even now. I guess my crime was to be considerate, gentlemanly, well turned out, and all those similarly awful things women unfailingly profess to want men to be.

The women who use these sites to lure men into situations where they can unload on them, and so vent their resentment, have hardly encouraged me to keep trying this kind of dating. From what I've seen, it's pretty likely that anyone I might pursue--no matter what she may say--is playing some form of that game. If there's little or nothing to be gained by all this, it make no sense to bother, and I doubt I will much longer. If I wanted to get jumped in back alleys, I could arrange it myself.

I'm the last one who wants to take such a negative view, and I very much wish I'd never seen what I have. Whatever anyone who doesn't know the details may imagine, I'm very sure that none of what happened was my doing. Nor did any of the women involved ever suggest it was. Whether feminists have led any women to hate men, or if so how much, I don't know. I certainly never wanted to see people anywhere held back, and I'm glad American women have achieved so much. If many of them want to enjoy their achievements by themselves, so be it.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 199 (view)
 
Are you your Car?
Posted: 1/13/2009 11:31:27 AM
Is that the BMW with eight cylinders--or the one where they left off two of them? Just rattling your cage--those are VERY nice cars.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 17 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/13/2009 11:28:01 AM
Do you really believe those feminist statements you quoted are so exceptional? Judging by the denunciations of men so many unmarried women so often make, I would have thought those sentiments were pretty much mainstream thought among them. Takes away just a little bit of the incentive to pursue them.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 42 (view)
 
Government bail-out plan
Posted: 1/12/2009 7:49:35 PM
I'm not at all sure that the New Deal got this country out of the Great Depression--whatever Mr. Obama may think. Unemployment was 5% when the stock market crashed in October, 1929, and it rose to about 9% by the end of that year. But then the rate started drifting down, and by late spring it had fallen to about 6.5%.

In June, 1930, Congress passed the disastrous Smoot-Hawley Act, whose tariffs made grain imports to the U.S. too expensive to compete. But it also made American grain too expensive to export competitively. The law hurt American farmers more than it helped, and that in turn harmed the many banks which held farm mortgages. At about this same time, the Fed made the first of several substantial increases in the prime rate it would make in the next year and a half, making all credit harder and harder to obtain.

By FDR's inauguration in early 1933, the unemployment rate was 25%. For the next three years, during which the administration was implementing the New Deal policies like crazy, it never dropped below 20% for any month. And in 1937, just as the economy seemed to have started upward, it collapsed again--the second "dip" of the Depression.

It's obvious much of the damage was done under Hoover's administration--but it's hard to see that the policies of the Roosevelt administration, as radical as they were, improved anything. It's impossible to know how the economy would have fared if Roosevelt had made no attempts to improve it--but after more than eight years of the New Deal, the Depression still persisted.
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 8 (view)
 
Courtship: What Happened to it And What Are we Dating For?
Posted: 1/11/2009 10:32:51 PM
"It was replaced with entire vulgarity. But of course."

It's pretty clear most of us run into vulgar people in the course of dating. At times they may seem like the rule, rather than the exception. But you're painting with a very broad brush if you believe dating today is "entire vulgarity," no matter who's involved. And if you do, why bother with a dating site?
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 337 (view)
 
women that want sex
Posted: 1/10/2009 2:11:01 PM
I got a good laugh, imagining the repairmen, FBI agent, and reverend dropping by in turn. And responding to nosey people reminded me of a line from Hitchcock's "North by Northwest." Having been framed for a murder, Mad Ave exec Roger Thornhill (Cary Grant) is trying to leave town by train. In the station, wearing sunglasses to try to hide his face, he waits nervously at the ticket window. The suspicious clerk asks, "Something the matter with your eyes, mister?" And in his most indignant tone, Grant shoots back, "Yes--they're VERY sensitive to QUESTIONS!"
 matchlessm
Joined: 11/11/2007
Msg: 194 (view)
 
Are you your Car?
Posted: 1/9/2009 4:36:11 PM
I've had a couple Hondas and a Yamaha Venture, but nothing now. Wouldn't mind getting one of the new Triumphs, though! The guys I've talked to who have them really like 'em.
 
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