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 Author Thread: UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 74 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/28/2011 11:02:12 PM

I will just display a little more arrogance just for you, if a company believes that it ____________________ pay 40 dollars per hour to have a lug nut turned



the correct wording you should have used (to fill into the blank line) is: "inevitably has to".........then what choice does such a company have?....what are the consequences for the company if it doesn't succumb?


You seem to have a very high opinion of your self, telling others what they should write and what threads they should or should not start

The poor companies unable to negotaite a contract with the employees that work for both the company and the employees


give me their address and name,




..Ummmm....perhaps GM, Ford and Chrsyler (pre-2008)!!!


Is that ummmmmmmmmm perhaps for sure or perhaps maybe


So in spite of unions, companies usually fail for many other reasons, none of which is our fault.



Hozo, you seem to be assuming that unions in the manufacturing sector (such as the company you worked for)have the same philosophy as those in the service sector..............in the manufacturing sector, it now behooves a union to closely work with that company to keep their members employed (such as you illustrated), but sometimes a company fails for entirely different reasons.


Lets see are GM, Ford and Chrsyler in the manufacturing or service sectors


Its different in the service sector because most services cannot be outsourced...thus giving the unions way more leverage in the negotiating process (examples: sanitation workers; police; teachers; etc) such that they simply put the "squeeze" on the governing body to attain their goals...what you end up having is "collective bargaining" that has "run-amok"


You mean like the air traffic controllers, you do nothing but make excuse after excuse for the people that negotiate salaries for the public sector, they hold the purse strings and know what they can afford or should know what they agree to, if they don't they should be replaced with more competent people.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 20 (view)
 
THE RONALD REAGAN MYTH
Posted: 2/28/2011 10:46:02 PM

Point out any thing that was not true in my original post and I will be glad to research it



well then, all you gotta do is go back to my message(No 10) read it and go to the reference posted....then compare it side by side with your pasted article and see where the deficiencies lie....its not that difficult to do!


You go back and read it, if you have a problem with my source try to point it out I am not going to try to guess what has you in such a dither


meantime your quoted statements above are less then respectful



sure,... if that is what your vanity will have you believe!


I have no vanity


first of all, its not just me......many others here are questioning the political motives of those whose article you've posted (and seem to have unquestionably embraced).


Many others?


--->should be long enuff for you to have accumulated a sufficient degree of wisdom so as to prevent you from easily being swayed or misled.


Long enough to know pure baloney when I see it


I think I remember Reagan and don’t think I ever cared for him much primarily for the statements below that were attributed to him



if you dislike RR for the statements he made (that you itemized), then you may have a legitimate reason for your disdain towards him........But not for the reasons that you posted in your opening post, in which the "author" tried to couple the current banking fiasco directly to RR


You need to go back and reread the source I posted, in the future I will consult with you to see if my reasoning for starting a thread is legitimate


Reagan wasn't a great president. He lied to congress



whether a president lies or does dastardly things....does not by itself disqualify him from the annals or 'greatness' ......much of it is based on public perception.


So what is your perception of a public servant who lies?

:
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 35 (view)
 
Letterman/ Rand Paul Interview
Posted: 2/28/2011 9:08:27 PM
The rest can be read at the web address below

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-

taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/


Pulitzer Prize winning tax reporter, David Cay Johnston, has written a brilliant piece for tax.com exposing the truth about who really pays for the pension and benefits for public employees in Wisconsin.



Gov. Scott Walker says he wants state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to “contribute more” to their pension and health insurance plans. Accepting Gov. Walker’ s assertions as fact, and failing to check, creates the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not. Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 70 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/28/2011 1:10:12 PM
So employees that work for companies that are private are protected by the NLR ACT
while employees that work for public companies only have their unions and their collective bargaining rights to protect them, take away their right to collective bargaining and public employees have no rights to bargain for wages, conditons as a group.

This is not about pay this is about union busting, this is about denying workers the right to be represented as a group


In the United States, the National Labor Relations Act (1935) covers most collective agreements in the private sector. This act makes it illegal for employers to discriminate, spy on, harass, or terminate the employment of workers because of their union membership or to retaliate against them for engaging in organizing campaigns or other "concerted activities" to form "company unions", or to refuse to engage in collective bargaining with the union that represents their employees. Unions are also exempt from antitrust law in the hope that members may collectively fix a higher price for their labor.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 30 (view)
 
Letterman/ Rand Paul Interview
Posted: 2/28/2011 12:32:14 PM

Actually, if you were to go out and get your own health insurance and other things that may be included in your benefits package, most of it would probably be tax deductible, and wouldn't add to your tax liability.


Your 100% right I think, but remember I am a liberal socialist, I believe that I might fare better on my own but do believe group plans benefit most people.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 28 (view)
 
Letterman/ Rand Paul Interview
Posted: 2/28/2011 12:07:07 PM

Employees do not pay for their benefits. The employer pays for them. That's why they're called "benefits."


If I make 40g a year and receive 16g in benefits that means my cost to that employer is at least 56g per year, if the employer did not pay the benefit package but added that 16g to my paycheck my paycheck would go up, now I realize that I would pay taxes on that 16g but no matter what color it's painted the benefit package is included in my cost to the employer.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 16 (view)
 
THE RONALD REAGAN MYTH
Posted: 2/28/2011 11:30:36 AM

Hardly.....my reply(as well as most others here) was to respectfully expose you for the propagandist that you are!........in my post, i pointed out the purposeful inaccuracies contained within the diatribe that you (mindlessly) posted in your opening statement and i provided you with at least 1 reference to back it up.



An abusive, bitter denunciation; A prolonged discourse; A speech or writing which bitterly denounces somethingen.wiktionary.org/wiki/diatribe




Bottom line I do not need your permisssion or some motive to start a thread

nor do i need your permission to expose you!.........but you are right about not needing a motive in order to start a thread if the purpose is just to troll around!


I was not really sure of whether I should feel elated or insulted when you used thw word diatribe to describe my the source I quoted so............
As you see I have already learned some thing, I just started working with a 7 year old pup, I don’t like calling them dogs because I think it hurts their feelings, any how he tried to bite my leg off every time I saw him, for a solid month I tried every thing I knew how to do to convince him not to bite and nothing worked, One day as I walked into the house he came after me barking and growling I had it and grabbed an old cane that was against the wall and went after him, he started running and I chased him being very careful not to corner him or actually hit him, it was an almost miraculous transformation as he decided that we should be buddies. He’s actually a good pup smart as a whip and very eager to please, we just had to learn how to communicate

I am 64 that does not make me a genius but it does not make me a target, I know how to copy and paste and I can find definitions for words that I never knew or have forgotten that I did know at one time

I think I remember Reagan and don’t think I ever cared for him much primarily for the statements below that were attributed to him, I tend to have a lot of sympathy for those who appear to have very little, President Reagan seemed to have very little sympathy


GREAT THOUGHTS OF RONALD REAGAN
"A tree's a tree. How many more do you need to look at?" -- Ronald Reagan (Governor of California), quoted in the Sacramento Bee, opposing expansion of Redwood National Park, March 3, 1966

"All the waste in a year from a nuclear power plant can be stored under a desk." --Ronald Reagan (Republican candidate for president), quoted in the Burlington (Vermont) Free Press, February 15, 1980

"It's silly talking about how many years we will have to spend in the jungles of Vietnam when we could pave the whole country and put parking stripes on it and still be home by Christmas." --Ronald Reagan (candidate for Governor of California), interviewed in the Fresno Bee, October 10, 1965

"...the moral equal of our Founding Fathers." --President Reagan, describing the Nicaraguan contras, March 1, 1985

"Fascism was really the basis for the New Deal." --Ronald Reagan, quoted in Time, May 17, 1976

"...a faceless mass, waiting for handouts." --Ronald Reagan, 1965. (Description of Medicaid recipients.)

"Unemployment insurance is a pre-paid vacation for freeloaders." --California Governor Ronald Reagan, in the Sacramento Bee, April 28, 1966

"We were told four years ago that 17 million people went to bed hungry every night. Well, that was probably true. They were all on a diet." --Ronald Reagan, TV speech, October 27, 1964

I won’t go over each one of the statements, I did not care for any of them and for me it reflected his character, but over the years I have known some really good people with horrible bed side manners.


When President Reagan came into office our economy was not doing well, he brought a team of advisors in with him “400 plus” and developed what is known as Reaganomics, being a team player I believe that the team approach is great depending on how it is used.

http://eightiesclub.tripod.com/id363.htm

Excerpt from a left leaning publication


A criticism of Reagan's policies is that they created a situation in which the rich got richer while the poor got poorer. However, a 1990 Bureau of the Census study revealed that all income groups realized gains from 1980 to 1989. Average real income rose by 15%. Average household income for the lowest fifth was $6,836 in 1980 and $7,372 in 1989. The gains of those in the upper levels were greater, however -- in 1980 the average household income for the highest fifth was $73,752, and that rose to $90,150 in 1989. A Treasury Department study showed that there was great mobility within the levels, with 86 percent of those who were in the lowest fifth in 1979 moving into higher income categories by 1989. In fact, more people moved up than down in every income group except the top 1% -- in that group, 53% went down. The poverty rate did, however, rise from 11.7% in 1979 to 13.5% in 1990, according to Business Week. Provocateurs like Mitch Snyder used grossly exaggerated and misleading numbers to claim that an epidemic of homelessness reflected the government's callous attitude toward the less fortunate. (Snyder claimed there were 2-3 million homeless when, in fact, as a thorough study by HUD indicated, there were but 250,000 to 350,000; in 1989 Snyder admitted his figures were bogus.)


Now it does appear that President Reagan’s economic policies did work, so the question is will they work today? I ask because it appears that some in our government is leaning towards Reaganomics today.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 15 (view)
 
THE RONALD REAGAN MYTH
Posted: 2/28/2011 8:35:06 AM

Hardly.....my reply(as well as most others here) was to respectfully expose you for the propagandist that you are!........in my post, i pointed out the purposeful inaccuracies contained within the diatribe that you (mindlessly) posted in your opening statement and i provided you with at least 1 reference to back it up.



for what motive?......as you obviously did not research it for contextual accuracy!...this further shows that you seem to be easily duped or swayed by those on the "far left", or that you are a mindless passer of propaganda.


Point out any thing that was not true in my original post and I will be glad to research it, meantime your quoted statements above are less then respectful, your opinion of Reagan may or may not be the same as mine, but it does seem odd that you only seem to want to dispute my thread and my replies.

Thank you for your input and participation in the political forums, the worst that can happen here is that we may disagree but the best that can happen might be that we learn from one another
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 96 (view)
 
The Republicans Single Greatest Problem as a Party
Posted: 2/28/2011 7:13:44 AM

The best way to check out potential public servants is to view their voting records, read interviews they have given, read anything that they have written,listen to statements that they make ....etc...


The only thing that would be revelant would be their voting records, I am not pointing out any party, if you believe every thing they say or write you are relying on information that may or may not be accurate. Some times they make honest mistakes some times they distort and fabricate and some times they just lie. We should not have to sort through every thing we hear from the representatives we elect to represent us.

Unfortunately we have become a nation that just grabs on to what we want to hear and swears that it is the gospel. If you question Politifact go to factcheck or find another source to support your opinion
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 25 (view)
 
Letterman/ Rand Paul Interview
Posted: 2/28/2011 6:52:41 AM

You may not, but that is compensation for the work that you do...so they should be included especially if like in the case of Wisconsin you pay nothing for the "Benefits"...


Sorry I can't agree with your statement above, whether you see a cost related to benefits or not you are paying for that benefit, if your base salary is 40,000 per year and with your benefits you would be making 68,000 a year you are paying 28,000 a year for your benefits. I have always felt that I would rather find my own insurance company instead of being locked into a group plan, as far as a pension goes I have no doubt that I am better of with it being deducted from my take home pay.

I have provided another link below that shows the "average" salary for Wisconsin teachers is below 50,000 per year, the starting salary is around 30,000. I don't know what the time line is to go from 30,000 to 50,000 but whether a teacher is new to the system or has ten years experience the average salary for Wisconsin teachers is " 2009" less then 50,000, so Rand Paul'S statement was false, whether he made an honest mistake or he knew that 89,000 dollars was inacurate he should have clarified the information that he stated, he was wrong and it does matter this thread is proof of that.

http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 23 (view)
 
Letterman/ Rand Paul Interview
Posted: 2/28/2011 5:06:25 AM

Guess you missed my post, msg 10; here I’ll highlight part of it for you and others who also seem incapable of acknowledging that benefits are part of salary:


I try to be nice most of the time, so........... Let me explain it to you. The teacher above makes 92,000 a year another teacher makes 30,000 a year that equals 123,000 the average of the two salaries now becomes 61,000 per year if a add a third teaher and that teachers salary is 45,000 per year the average salary would now be 55,000. In order to calculate what the average salary is you need to take the salary information from every teacher in Wisconsin add all of the salaries together and then divide that number by the number of teachers in Wisconsin

The only sources that I could find stated that the average salary of teachers in Wisconsin was under 50,000 per year, I have not seen one source that has conflicting information

Rand Paul may or may not have included benefits when he stated that teachers make 89,000 dollars a year, I never and most of the people I know do not include benefits when we talk about how much money we make each year
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 13 (view)
 
THE RONALD REAGAN MYTH
Posted: 2/27/2011 9:39:34 PM

did not write it I just watched a show on TV found the source and started the thread.




or what motive?......as you obviously did not research it for contextual accuracy!...this further shows that you seem to be easily duped or swayed by those on the "far left", or that you are a mindless passer of propaganda.

either that, or you are just trying to be the biggest troll on these forums!
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/071603.asp


Your reply is nothing more then flame baiting apparently you are a Reagan fanatic who feels a need to jump to his defence, do you have the same reaction if some one brings up Caesar? Do you believe that history is a good teacher? Bottom line I do not need your permisssion or some motive to start a thread
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 68 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/27/2011 9:27:47 PM

if the company agrees to pay a worker 40 per hour to turn a lug nut whose fault is that the workers?



and its the hubris filled statement like this that highlights what unions have evolved into............this is like if i accidentally left my car door unlocked and a thief steals it, by this logic, its my fault that the car was stolen....not the thief's.


I will just display a little more arrogance just for you, if a company believes that it can or should pay 40 dollars per hour to have a lug nut turned give me their address and name, as far as the rest of your statement how you can make the comparison that you did above explains why you can not see the real problem, comparing a negotiated contract with a car being stolen defies all logic.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 21 (view)
 
Letterman/ Rand Paul Interview
Posted: 2/27/2011 7:39:14 PM

I stand corrected, but you did say that Paul was incorrect in the amount being spent on teachers and cited average salaries which were incorrectly lower than the actual salaries. If you want to learn about how the unions support the teachers, look into the teacher compensation system called "The Uniform Salary Schedule." It is the payment system highly endorsed by unions as opposed to merit, individual and other outcome based systems based on student performance. It is the system which unions back based on tenure and post-certification education


I supplied two sources 'below" which showed that the AVERAGE SALARY of Wisconsin teachers is less then 50,000 a year, I have yet to see a source that disputes that the average salary of Wisconsin teachers is less then 50,000 per year

http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Teacher-l-Wisconsin.html
http://teacherportal.com/salary/Wisconsin-teacher-salary

Rand Paul stated that the average teacher in Wisconsin makes 89,000 a year, whether he was including benefits or not was not clear, when people ask me how much do you make I reply that I make xx number of dollars I don't tell them that with my benefits I make xxx dollars, when I apply for a job they ask me how much did you make on your last job not how much including benefits did you make on your last job. When people ask me what is your hourly pay I tell them xx.xx not what I make per hour including benefits. The interveiw can be seen below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk3Do8wnZLc&feature=player_embedded

Each school board submits a budget, unions do not have the power to tell the school board what they have to pay teachers, pay is negotiated at contract time. Do you expect the teachers to say oh please cut my salary this year? If the teachers salaries are to high it's not the teachers or the unions fault. The teachers union has/had agreed to take voluntary cuts in excess of 7,000 per year , that does not seem to satisfy Gov Walker
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 19 (view)
 
Letterman/ Rand Paul Interview
Posted: 2/27/2011 6:10:39 PM

The money is being spent on...................... the students, the students are poor performers because the parents allow them to be, teachers are educators not paid baby sitters, if the parents or people involved want to see better grades and a lower cost per student they need to kick the person in the butt that they look at in the mirror every morning



I agree. So why would you feel that teachers are so underpaid if its such a lost cause? Wouldn't that just be throwing good money away?


I am glad you agree, however did I say that teachers are underpaid? Probably just guessing but maybe there are a handful of students that need a teacher.


The unions bargain for the teachers, since the unions can not dictate the wages and salaries of the teachers they have to negotiate for salaries and benefits, if their is a problem the school boards and tax payers are responsible not the teachers and not the unions



If the parents aren't going to step up to the plate making the students such poor performers, why should teachers be encouraged by the union to seek higher level degrees for higher pay? You'd think that the students would have a better chance if they $13,000 a year spent per student was just given to the parents via a 13,000, one dollar lottery tickets? They'd have a better chance of coming out ahead wouldn't they? It would be a far more effective system than the existing educational system.


I had no idea that the unions encouraged teachers to seek higher degrees, do you have a source? So you want to give lottery tickets to parents for their children in place of an eduction, would that be a one time deal or would that be 13,000 lottery tickets per year? I really think I would rather get involved in my childs education, but with some children a one time payment of 13,000 lottery tickets might be a better deal for every one involved
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 94 (view)
 
The Republicans Single Greatest Problem as a Party
Posted: 2/27/2011 3:59:00 PM

Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich. Maybe Rand Paul too, but I'm not entirely comfortable with him. I can't think of any others.


I am not going to take issue with you on the people above but it's not that hard to fact check them, all potential public servants should feel a very strong desire to be as honest as they can with the facts that are available to them, that strong desire will only be cultivated when we call them out, going to factcheck, or politifact is an easy way to check on your personal choice for office
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 64 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/27/2011 3:33:45 PM

I know this arcane process called " reading" is difficult for some, point out where I said that All Employers/business owners does take advantage of all workers, I said there are some bad one out there, yes......Does that mean all do? I know when I was replying to Earls post about serving two masters he misunderstood what I was talking about, unless that is what youre referring to ?


First I want to say I am glad that you are here and involved enough that you are taking the time to debate this issue, that says a lot for your character

I did not misunderstand, you identified business owners as one of two masters, owner's of businesses, now I have no way of knowing you might be a great employer or maybe your employees are afraid of losing their jobs if they speak up, if they are afraid to talk to you, you as an owner are not getting the benefit of your most valuable asset the people who work for your company.

I have been at this for over 40 years, early on I learned the value of having people work "with" you not "for" you. The truth is each of us have one master that master is the one that looks back at you each morning. I learned that if I could make coming to work less painful and more fun for those I worked with that achieving my personal goals, my goals of increased productivity, a better quality product at reduced costs could be realized by having a highly functional, highly motivated team of people. I was a manager the people that I worked with were all union production workers and union craftmen/women.

Whether an employee is union or non union people go to work to earn a living, the word "earn" can be translated to indicate pride, everyone from the janitor to the company CEO has a stake in doing their job as proficiently as possible. When a person feels that he/she plays an important role in obtaining the end goal, they take a lot of pride in what they do

Now I am the very proud parent of a daughter who spent 10 years in college to become a doctor, she holds a double PHD and had a choice as to whether she goes into practice or teaches. She gave up a considerable amount of money to become a professor at a college. Her starting salary is 53,000 per year plus benefits she is a member of a teachers union, her salary is not much really when you take in account that she spent 10 years to receive her doctrate, that she had to work, take out student loans and receive grants to pay for her education. She could have picked a private college to work at and made 15 to 20,000 more, but she choose a public school she now faces the possibility that the republicans intent on busting unions will further effect her living conditions.

One of her students wrote the essay below, even though he published this essay on the internet I have removed any reference to his name.


As an observer of Wisconsin politics, I am frustrated with the standoff between Republican Gov. Scott Walker and the State Senate’s Democratic minority.

I have inherited a bit of Wisconsin love in my blood. But as a current outsider, I believe that the anti-union bill proposed by Walker is damaging the rich foundation of Wisconsin politics.

The effects of the bill — which requires state employees to make contributions toward their pensions and weakens collective bargaining rights — could be a devastating precursor for other Republican-controlled states.

Support for Walker has taken up arms in Ohio, Indiana, Tennessee and other states, where Republican leaders are looking to modify and shave stipulations from similar collective bargaining agreements.

In Pennsylvania, this union-busting technique has yet to be addressed. But, as Philadelphians, we must be vigilant of deceitful efforts by Harrisburg to cut the benefits of our state’s public officials.

The passage of the bill in Wisconsin could result in the largest reduction of power in the public sector in decades.

As The New York Times described, Wisconsin’s 7.5-percent unemployment rate is less than the national average. Its pension fund is one of the best in the nation. Additionally, the union representation in Wisconsin is one of the strongest in the nation.

Marty Beil ­— the executive director of the Wisconsin State Employees Union, which represents about 22,000 state employees — has already approved state decreases of overtime raises and employee furloughs. Walker, however, believes the new collective bargaining will generate $300 million in state revenues over the next two years and reduce the $3.6 billion state deficit.

If cutting the state budget seems to be the motivating focus behind Walker’s measures, then how can the governor rationalize the cuts of state workers when allowing ongoing tax breaks to corporations in Wisconsin? While the tax breaks aim to encourage state profits, they actually generate a net loss of over $100 million in state taxes.

Furthermore, the state’s alcohol tax hasn’t seen an increase in over 40 years. A 1- or 2-percent increase in the alcohol tax in a state known for its beer and brats would not deter its residents from indulging in such pleasures. This money could be used to slash budget deficits.

The decisions by Wisconsin affect us all. We must collectively use our voices to demonstrate the power of a working democracy.

is a 2012 Master of Social Work candidate at P---’s School of Social Policy and Practice.


As stated above Governor Walker had other ways to cut the deficit and did not, instead he went after the teaqchers and collective bargaining.

Governor walker wants to sell off publically owned utilities to private owners, why? Why would a private owner be able to make money when the publically owned utility was losing money? I have one answer poor management

The teachers in Wisconsin were willing to work with Govenor Walker, they agreed to give up over 7,000 a year, Govenor Walker refused their offer, he is intent on taking away their ability to use collective bargaining. If the govenor was intent on bringing the deficit down he could have found other ways to do it, he picked the unions because the republican and tea partiers are not just trying to bring deficits under control they are trying to prevent people from organizing and supporting democratic candidates
and policies. Freedom is under attack here, you freedom to organize and vote people into office that will support your wants and needs is under attack, Whether you are a democrat, republican or indendant your freedom is at stake , there is a lot of waste in every budget before an elected representative of the people turns to cuts that will effect the living standards of the people who pay the taxes and consume the products that generate income,taxes and employment he'sle should exhaust every other option
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 17 (view)
 
Letterman/ Rand Paul Interview
Posted: 2/27/2011 12:53:17 PM

seeing all these huge salaries and bonuses being posted,,,,is anyone else wondering what the end result is of all this money spent on these teachers???for money like that all the kids comeing out of those classes should be mensa members.

Watch it and weep....



The money is being spent on...................... the students, the students are poor performers because the parents allow them to be, teachers are educators not paid baby sitters, if the parents or people involved want to see better grades and a lower cost per student they need to kick the person in the butt that they look at in the mirror every morning

The unions bargain for the teachers, since the unions can not dictate the wages and salaries of the teachers they have to negotiate for salaries and benefits, if their is a problem the school boards and tax payers are responsible not the teachers and not the unions
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 92 (view)
 
The Republicans Single Greatest Problem as a Party
Posted: 2/27/2011 10:17:28 AM
I would say this sums up what many people are feeling.

Good rant I would add at least one thing, it's time to hold any and all elected politicians responsible for the distortions, fabrications and lies they tell, their is no justifiable reason to lie not even ignorance. If a politician lies it time for that public servant to move on without benefits

Think of how much money we could save if we just get rid of the liars, fabricators and distortionist, I wonder how many politicians would be left
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 58 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/27/2011 4:49:14 AM

what do you think of the interview Walker gave admitting he considered sending in paid provocateurs to initiate violence



I think you should stop believing everything you read over the Internet. Otherwise, is Walker REALLY the illegitmate son of space aliens?


Apparently you can't find any thing to prove that the phone call was bogus, so you try to attack the messenger by implying that it was not factual. These are the same type tactics used by the "birthers"

It seems like Walker admitted to the taped conversation

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/23/scott-walker-prank-call_n_827370.html


MADISON, WIS -- During a 20 minute press conference in the governor's office, Gov. Scott Walker (R) addressed the prank call he received Tuesday from a man impersonating billionaire oil tycoon David Koch.

"I take phone calls all the time," Walker said in response to a reporter's question about whether Democrats could trust him to negotiate with them in good faith. "The bottom line is, the things I said are things I said publicly all along."
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 14 (view)
 
Letterman/ Rand Paul Interview
Posted: 2/27/2011 4:18:50 AM

Msg 8: Jesus Christ, Earl! Did you just netcop 6 random teachers with their names, locations and income information?

Moderators, are you out there???


All the names ect of the teachers can be found on the internet at

http://www.postcrescent.com/article/99999999/APC0110/80221166/DataMine-Search-Wisconsin-teacher-salaries?appSession=034284677136827

 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 9 (view)
 
THE RONALD REAGAN MYTH
Posted: 2/26/2011 3:55:25 PM

Why are you questioning my right to start this thread?



stioning your right, just your motives.
Seems at best you are trying to drum up support of an online publication.
As you don't really give anything to discuss, or ask questions, you just copy and paste what someone else has done.


So you think that every one who starts a thread has a secret motive or is it just me? Or do you feel that no one should ever post any thing that might question the Reagan myth.

The thread is revelant, why because we are in a recession at this point like we were in when Reagan was in office

http://www.gvsu.edu/hauenstein/reaganomics-40.htm


If there is some thing in this thread that is wrong correct it



Why would someone do it here and not go directly to the source, here it's not even in its entirety.
It's one thing to correct your wrong assumptions and interpretations (or support them), it's something else to just post the work of someone else (that isn't even here) with nothing else.

It seems if you hand out pamphlets it's propaganda, if you provide information and ask questions about it or make conclusions from it and ask if you're right, it's a discussion.

The only question or discussion about this is a question about your rights to post it, and after a few replies challenging people to correct it.
Which implies you don't really want to discuss it, you want to use it to simply alter someone's opinion. So it seems you are starting this thread to either offer propaganda, or get into an argument of opinions on who is right.


Actually what I thought we were doing here was debating


I did not write it I just watched a show on TV found the source and started the thread.



So your first thought was "Hey, that was interesting, let's go to a dating site forum board and simply ejaculate part of a progressive website/blog and not really say anything in the OP about it, but just copy and paste part of it."


Dang I thought I was on a political forum debating politics. I was wondering if Reaganomics would work today and why and if not why.

Is this the time for me to give my opinion?
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 5 (view)
 
THE RONALD REAGAN MYTH
Posted: 2/26/2011 4:49:48 AM

The forums are not a place to reprint liberal blogs. Either link the source or go home.

When Reagan came into office, he faced double digit inflation, an oil crisis, and an Iranian hostage situation. Considering the challenges, he did quite well. If Obama could only do half as well, he might get reelected. I'm not holding my breath in anticipation, though.

Why are you debating a President that was in office 30 years ago anyway? For most schoolchildren, Reagan is as much a historical figure as Taft.



Worth repeating.

Like your other thread on teacher’s salaries, you believe everything you hear or read without providing yourself the benefit of proof.

Your anti-conservative agenda is obvious and boring.


Actually I do supply sources, if you dispute the information I supply show me where it is in error
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 5 (view)
 
Letterman/ Rand Paul Interview
Posted: 2/26/2011 4:36:36 AM

Mr. Paul was not lying with his $89,000 a year statement. It is unfortunate that a great number of persons believe as you do as they too are uninformed. Perhaps why they blindly back these teachers.


For the time being I will address the statement quoted above, I supplied two sources to show that the average teachers salary in wisconsin is less then 50 thousand a year, unlike many I do try to research before I just repeat information I hear or read, now if a teacher's base pay is less then 50 thousand a year that would mean that the teacher is recieving according to Rand Paul around 40 thousand a year in benefits, now since I don't know for sure what the average benefit package would be for a teacher making 50 thousand a year is I will have to look it up, unlike many I do look for information that either confirms or denies statements made by politicians whether they are republicans,democrats or independants
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 3 (view)
 
THE RONALD REAGAN MYTH
Posted: 2/26/2011 3:08:24 AM

The forums are not a place to reprint liberal blogs. Either link the source or go home.


prorev.com/reagan.htm


When Reagan came into office, he faced double digit inflation, an oil crisis, and an Iranian hostage situation. Considering the challenges, he did quite well. If Obama could only do half as well, he might get reelected. I'm not holding my breath in anticipation, though.

Why are you debating a President that was in office 30 years ago anyway? For most schoolchildren, Reagan is as much a historical figure as Taft.


America America remember that song, this is a free country, Why are you questioning my right to start this thread? If there is some thing in this thread that is wrong correct it, I did not write it I just watched a show on TV found the source and started the thread.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 53 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/25/2011 8:51:49 PM

I don’t know why any “Real" Texans would go to NJ but they don’t have to just for a job.


I just thought since they said they came from Texas and the plates on their cars and trucks said Texas that they were probably Real Texans, they were good guys hard workers for the most part


http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2011/feb/18/texas-leads-nation-in-exports-job-creation/

Texas again has been ranked the top exporting state, according to data released by the U.S. Department of Commerce.
Texas continued to outperform the rest of the nation in job creation, maintaining an unemployment rate a point lower than the national average. In 2010, Texas created more jobs than any other state and achieved a job growth rate almost double that of any other top 10 state, the news release stated.
You can go read the rest of the article yourself as this is really off topic …….


I would hate to suggest this but maybe the absence of Bush was good for your economy


Management carries the ball if the company fails it's managements fault, I don't know how anyone can blame the "old mechanics"



Oh and please note that I am not blaming the “old mechanics” for the failure of the company, no all they are guilty of is believing in the unions, it was the unions that refused to work with Eastern’s management that led to no choice but to file for bankruptcy & liquidation of their assets.


I think I will have to read a little more to know what happened to Eastern airlines
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 49 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/25/2011 3:09:05 PM

Do you consider reading as one of your skills? Just wondering since only 7% of the work force is now union as I said in an earlier entry( msg 21



that was your original snarly holier than thou attitude quote towards me, so I gave it back to you bud, if you can take it you shouldn't dish it out.


Let me clear it up with you if the problems in this country are being created by 7% of the workforce we are in trouble.


Of course I dislike Unions, Consider that some union people are paid outrageous amounts of money to perform non-skilled tasks--often just grunt work--and the resultant price increase is borne by all. You can't tell me that it makes sense for a company to pay somebody $40.00 an hour to turn lug nuts? while Health care workers, Nurses and Inner cities school teachers heck even some Pilots are getting paid less in most cases.


Lets say that some company actually pays 40 per hour to turn a lug nut, if the company agrees to pay a worker 40 per hour to turn a lug nut whose fault is that the workers? Do you pay one of your employees 40 per hour to empty the trash, if you did whose fault would that be.

I am a skilled craftsman 'carpenter/millwright I make 40 per hour plus benefits, I went to school for four years and worked as an apprentice with journeymen mechanics to learn my trade, I can build any thing from your back yard sandbox to the highest building and any thing inbetween.

I worked as a mechanical engineer for 25 years for a major international chemical company, I supervised all of the crafts their pay rate varied from unskilled laborers making around 17 per hour to skilled craftmen making up to 22 per hour, any thing that went on in my area was my responsibility, my people were union and earned their checks, no one came to work to sit on their butts and no one did. I made 30,000 per year when I started and 87,000 when I finished. I sat in on hiring and contract negotiations. I never referred to any craftsperson as bud and never considered myself a master.

I will say it again management carries the responsibility of negotiating contracts and has the responsibility to make sure that the people who do the work earn their pay checks, blaming the worker union or not is nothing but a cop out.

If your business fails who is responsible, your employees?
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 45 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/25/2011 1:53:29 PM

Management is responsible to supervise and see to it that the work is completed in the most effective way possible, if union workers were sitting around than management dropped the ball.



Yes, management dropped the ball, but not because these guys were sitting around playing cards, after all it was in their contracts, they were “SHOP mechanics” they were not required to ever leave the shop and go to the hanger, no, no, no that was not in their job descriptions. (Another thing I learned is that in a Union everybody has a job description and you don’t dare do anything not explicitly defined as your job.) The people who dropped the ball were the people that agreed to and signed those union contracts, of course I’m sure the contract wasn’t worded quite so clearly as to make it obvious you would have the old guys sitting around playing cards waiting on others to bring them something to do, but due to the “Job descriptions” in the contract that is exactly what they ended up with.


I don't care how you say it if management agrees to the terms of the contract and the shop mechanics are not living up to the terms of the contract then it is managements responsibility to enforce the contract. Now I am not an airline mechanic so I am just guessing but I would guess they have to be specifically trained to do the aircraft maintenance, if your company supplies mechanics to make repairs they must be certified to work on airlines.


The one constant I heard over and over from the old guys that once worked for now defunct major airlines was that it was managements fault they failed, never the workers, always the management, Take Eastern Airlines, once one of the top 4 airlines in the country, now barely a memory. In the mid 80’s Eastern like a lot of the airlines during that time was saddled with huge debt, deregulation, new plane purchases, expansion costs and of course labor costs had culminated into a perfect storm, to simplify, Eastern had to cut costs, anywhere and everywhere they could, but the unions refused to cooperate and Eastern is no more.


I agree with the "old mechanics" they have a vote on contracts but can not force any company to ratify the contract, Management carries the ball if the company fails it's managements fault, I don't know how anyone can blame the "old mechanics"


Ya know, I had this discussion with a union mechanic who thought he would enlighten me as to just how bad I had it working for a non-union shop, and after comparing wages, benefits, vacation, & finally actual pay stubs, it turns out I brought home more each week then he did, know why ??
Three guess’s and the first two don’t count, do ya know why ? easy, I didn’t pay union dues, talk about one pissed off Teamster !


I live and work in NJ I have met a lot of people from Texas who come here for work, I guess for what ever reason you do not have much work in Texas?
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 1 (view)
 
Letterman/ Rand Paul Interview
Posted: 2/25/2011 1:21:25 PM
Admittedly I am not a supporter of the Republicans or the Tea Partiers, as time goes on my support for President Obama is starting to decline. To me President Obama is to willing to negotiate and compromise with the Tea and Republican parties.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB00uJMGIDk&feature=player_embedded

I watched the David Lettermen interview with Rand Paul last night, at some point they started talking about the battle going on in Wisconsin that's when Rand Paul argued his position by stating that the average teacher in Wisconsin made $89,000, I had to check that number it sounded wrong, as it turns out the average teacher salary in Wisconsin is $48,000.

http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Teacher-l-Wisconsin.html
http://teacherportal.com/salary/Wisconsin-teacher-salary

When the people we elect to represent us be they democrats,republicans, independents ect distort, fabricate and lie to us about facts how can we continue to pay them, why are they not impeached and banned from holding public office, why will they receive life long pensions and healthcare. If you lied to your employer would you still have a job?
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 43 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/25/2011 12:38:10 PM

I find it difficult to consider $50,000. pay per year anything close to middle or poor class. If that's the case, then send me to the damn homeless shelter.


Why is it that you are so upset over some one making 50g a year? Do you realize as the average wage is reduced yours will also be reduced? As people who use your service lose income they are going to have to cut some where. Do you work through a service? Do you feel that you receive a pay that is fair for the work you do?

I had a small business that I had to shut down, due to layoffs and paycuts
people no longer have the disposable income needed to jusitify their spending money to make upgrades to their homes. I bid my labor to make 10 per hour.

What ever you are making now will end up being less, this attack on the unions if successful will lower your living conditions and the living conditions of every middle and poor class wage earner.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 1 (view)
 
THE RONALD REAGAN MYTH
Posted: 2/25/2011 5:02:39 AM
The great president exposed

THE RONALD REAGAN MYTH


"Ronald Reagan must be the nicest president who ever destroyed a union, tried to cut school lunch milk rations from six to four ounces, and compelled families in need of public help to first dispose of household goods in excess of $1,000...1f there is an authoritarian regime in the American future, Ronald Reagan is tailored to the image of a friendly fascist." - Robert Lekachman

HOW THE REAGAN REVOLUTION DAMAGED THE AMERICAN ECONOMY

THINGS PEOPLE FORGET ABOUT REAGAN

Steve Kornacki, Salon - By the summer of 1992, just 24 percent of Americans said their country was better off because of the Reagan years, while 40 percent said it was worse off -- and that more Americans (48 percent) viewed Reagan unfavorable than favorably (46 percent). .

REAGAN GAVE BIRTH TO TODAY'S FISCAL CRISES

Robert Brent Toplin, History News Network - Ronald Reagan promised to take government off the backs of enterprising Americans. He told voters that government was not the solution to the nation's problems; it was the problem. "The nine most terrifying words in the English language," said Reagan, are, " 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' " His speeches contained numerous warnings about the chilling effects of bureaucratic regulation. Government leaders think, he said, "If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.". . . The main problem with Reagan's outlook was a failure to recognize that government regulation can serve business interests quite effectively. Many of the regulatory programs started by Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal in the 1930s aimed to promote fairness in economic competition. That legislation required greater transparency so that investors could more intelligently judge the value of securities in the stock market. The reforms mandated a separation of commercial and investment bank activities, since speculative investments by commercial banks had been one of the principal causes of the financial crash. Roosevelt's New Deal also created a bank insurance program, the FDIC, which brought stability to a finance industry that had been on the verge of collapse.

These and other improvements of the 1930s worked splendidly. For the next half century American markets operated with impressive stability. There were periods of boom and recession, but the country's financial system did not suffer from the kinds of shocks that have upset the American economy in recent years. The turn away from rules that promote fair business practices fostered dangerous risk-taking. An early sign of the troubles occurred on Reagan's watch. When the requirements for managing savings and loan institutions became lax in the 1980s, leaders of those organizations invested money recklessly. Many institutions failed or came close to failure, and the cleanup cost more than $150 billion. Yet blame for that crisis did not stick to the Teflon President. Recent troubles in the American economy can be attributed to a weakening of business regulation in the public interest, which is, in large part, a consequence of Reagan's anti-government preaching. In the absence of oversight, lending became a wildcat enterprise. Mortgage brokers easily deceived home buyers by promoting sub-prime loans, and then they passed on bundled documents to unwary investors.

Executives at Fannie Mae packaged both conventional and sub-prime loans, and they too, operated almost free of serious oversight. Fannie's leaders spent lavishly to hire sixty Washington lobbyists who showered congressmen with campaign funds. Executives at Fannie were generous to the politicians because they wanted to ward off regulation. Meanwhile, on Wall Street, brokerage firms became deeply committed to risky mortgage investments and did not make their customers fully aware of the risks. The nation's leading credit rating agencies, in turn, were not under much pressure to question claims about mortgage-based instruments that were marketed as blue chip quality. Government watchdogs were not active during those times to serve the interests of the public and the investors. . . Reagan's views of the relationship between government and business helped to put the nation and the world into a good deal of trouble. It is time to recognize that the former president's understanding of economics was not as sophisticated as his enthusiastic supporters often claimed.

GREAT THOUGHTS OF RONALD REAGAN
"A tree's a tree. How many more do you need to look at?" -- Ronald Reagan (Governor of California), quoted in the Sacramento Bee, opposing expansion of Redwood National Park, March 3, 1966

"All the waste in a year from a nuclear power plant can be stored under a desk." --Ronald Reagan (Republican candidate for president), quoted in the Burlington (Vermont) Free Press, February 15, 1980

"It's silly talking about how many years we will have to spend in the jungles of Vietnam when we could pave the whole country and put parking stripes on it and still be home by Christmas." --Ronald Reagan (candidate for Governor of California), interviewed in the Fresno Bee, October 10, 1965

"...the moral equal of our Founding Fathers." --President Reagan, describing the Nicaraguan contras, March 1, 1985

"Fascism was really the basis for the New Deal." --Ronald Reagan, quoted in Time, May 17, 1976

"...a faceless mass, waiting for handouts." --Ronald Reagan, 1965. (Description of Medicaid recipients.)

"Unemployment insurance is a pre-paid vacation for freeloaders." --California Governor Ronald Reagan, in the Sacramento Bee, April 28, 1966

"We were told four years ago that 17 million people went to bed hungry every night. Well, that was probably true. They were all on a diet." --Ronald Reagan, TV speech, October 27, 1964
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 35 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/25/2011 4:15:37 AM

Also, what do y'all (as in EVERYONE reading this thread) think about the 14 Democrat senators leaving the state to prevent the quorum needed to pass this bill?


I think it is great and hope that the rest of the country catches on


I think it's pathetic. The Democrats, I assume, were elected to do a job. If they're too cowardly to do that job because they might lose at the end of the day, then they should stay away.


I think we should start impeachment procedures against Walker and the 19 republicans


If Governor Walker truly wants to cut the budget, I know of 14 paychecks that should be withheld until the senators they are going to return and agree to do the job they were elected to do.


I can think of 20 paychecks that should be withheld
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 33 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 8:52:17 PM

When/if the last 7% lose their power...do you see it as all of a sudden the world ending or something? Or the next day some sort of corporate Darth Vader is going to come out and say "Ah ha! They fell for my plan, now true change can begin, you are all in my power! All those laws that passed, ha ha ha, I had my fingers crossed so they don't matter anymore. Bring in the sweat shops!"


This is what you will see


http://www.webster.edu/~woolflm/sweatshops.html

U.S. Companies With Ties to Sweatshops
Many corporations use contract manufacturing firms to produce their goods. They separate themselves from the production of their goods and refuse to take responsibility for the conditions under which they are made. However, these companies actually dictate the labor standards of their suppliers. Corporations demand extremely low prices for merchandise. As a result, manufacturers, concerned with making a profit, cut employees' wages and compromise their safety. Foreign governments accomodate corporations, as well, by setting the minimum wage well below what is needed to meet basic needs, in order to boost national economic gain (Given, 1997). American companies get away with these type of business practices because the U.S. Labor Department requires only internal monitoring. Thus, there is no way to determine whether or not companies are honest about the conditions that they find. Unfortunately, even if violations of human rights are discovered, corporations are only held to negligible fines.
Many U.S. retailers have ties to sweatshops, which are usually foreign owned and operated. Nike moved production out of the U.S. to Taiwan and South Korea when workers demanded better wages. When democracy took hold in these regions, Nike moved production to Indonesia, Vietnam, and China (Given, 1997). Nike's Indonesian factories commit numerous violations of human rights and health and safety standards. Workers are paid only $2.00 per day. They are forced to work with toxic glues and chemicals without adequate training, masks, and gloves (Morey, 2000). Nike agrees to pay employees' medical bills only after they have been paid in full by the workers who can't afford to do so. Fear is a common tactic to keep workers in line. Many are afraid to ask to use the bathroom, and women who are menstruating have to wear multiple sanitary pads and black clothing to hide blood stains (Morey, 2000). Workers also have to endure verbal abuse, 60-70 hour work weeks, and humiliation. Nike's internal monitoring does very little to help the employees' situation. Monitors fail to discover many problems in the sweatshops because managers know of visits ahead of time and clean up the facilities, and because monitors rarely talk to the workers. Nike also has facilities in Vietnam and China with similar conditions. Nike denied allegations of abuses in its factories for years, but finally in May of 1998 Nike announced its pledge to follow U.S. occupational health and safety standards, end child labor, and allow external monitoring of its facilities (Corporate Watch, 2000). However, recent attacks against workers at a Korean-owned factory in Mexico that makes Nike clothing raises questions about their commitment (Global Exchange, 2001).

Wal-mart also promotes poor working conditions in factories. Facilities in China that produce clothing for the retailer pay their workers as low as $.13 an hour. Unfortunately, it is difficult to discover much about the practices in Wal-mart factories because Wal-mart refuses to disclose the names and locations of their sweatshops (Co-op America, 2001). Thus, neither the U.S. government nor consumers are able to discern how bad the conditions really are. The Gap produces clothing in six factories in Saipan. Although they use "Made in the USA" labels, they refuse to adhere to U.S. labor standards (Global Exchange, 2000). Indentured servitude, physical abuse and threats, and unsafe working conditions are among the violations in Gap factories in Saipan. In Russia, Gap factory workers are paid as little as $.11 per hour, and in Honduras Gap workers are forced to undergo mandatory pregnancy tests, work overtime, do not have access to locked bathrooms, and make $4.00 a day (Global Exchange, 2000). Although Gap claims to follow a "no sweat" code of conduct, it blatantly fails to do so. Disney has a number of suppliers in China who subject their employees to sweatshop conditions. Many of the factories require young women to pay "deposits" upon hire that put them in a situation of indentured servitude. Wages are low, and overtime is required in these factories. Workers do not receive health insurance even though it is required by Chinese law (Hong Kong Christian Industrial Commitee, 1999). Unfortunately, most of the young women who work in Disney's factories are unaware of their rights.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 30 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 3:47:45 PM

Just my 2 cents ….

As noted unions only make up 7% of the workforce and I’d say the reason is that people have figured out all the union label means now days is “it costs too much”

I worked in the Aviation industry for years and never saw a single thing union related that was good for the company or the consumer, just a couple …..

The company I worked for did emergency 24 hour repairs anywhere in the country, along with standard FBO (Fixed Base Operations) services, so while most of the time we worked in and around the airports and hangers in the DFW area we would go anywhere for a price.

One year three of us were sent from Dallas, Texas to Ypsilanti, Michigan, you might ask why ? Well it seems it was “too cold outside” imagine that, it’s cold outside in Michigan in the winter, I guess it was too cold for the poor union boys to work on the airplane, which had been grounded by an FAA inspector due to a fuel leak. Yes, according to the Union, the plane had to be inside before they could touch it because it was too cold outside. Unfortunately for DHL the airport in Ypsilanti did not have a hanger big enough to hold a 727, so the options were, leave it there till spring and or it warmed up enough, or fill out all the paperwork, jump through all the hoops the FAA requires & pay all the fees and fines that come with transporting an aircraft somewhere for maintenance. Or send three guys from a “Right to Work State” to get er done! LOL
So how much do you think it cost to send the three of us from Texas to Michigan, get us each a hotel room, a rental car for two days, and pay for all our food and drink for two days, for what was less than two hours work ???

(Look for the Union Label)

The next time I questioned the sanity of unions, an airplane had arrived for a major check, called a C or a D check, these are major checks in that you essentially take the airplane apart, look at all the pieces then put it back together again replacing anything that is worn or broken.
Well two of the engines were up for their own checks and they were looking for volunteers to work overtime to get the engines off and sent to the engine shop so they could be inspected.
Silly me, I had no idea, so I asked, So why don’t the engine shop guys come down and get one of the engines while we get the other, that way they would only need one crew to work overtime instead of two, I was laughed at, it seems I had no idea how things worked in a union shop. I found out those old men in the engine shop, well they had seniority, and that meant they would sit on their ass’s and play cards and drink coffee until we brought them an engine to work on, they were not about to come get it.
How much do you think ten guys on overtime pulling engines cost the company so that eight old union guys could sit on their ass’s & play cards & drink coffee in their little shop.

(Look for the Union Label)

I saw the same thing over and over, the avionics shop, the hydraulics shop, same as the engine shop, old union guys bid for these shops so they can retire before they actually retire.

How do these folks develop such an entitlement mentality that they feel it is acceptable to sit around and play cards while others are being paid overtime to get the job they aren’t doing done.
WTF ??? Do they not understand that no company can afford to do that indefinitely ?


And if you ever get to watch a fight between two unions over who gets to represent a group of workers and aren’t disgusted by the things you see, well you then weren’t paying attention.


I have no way of knowing whether what you say is or isn't factual so I will just assume that it is. Management is responsible to supervise and see to it that the work is completed in the most effective way possible, if union workers were sitting around than management dropped the ball. I managed a maintenance department my craftsmen/women were great they came to work anticipating that they would be working and they did, it was up to me to utilize my crew effectively, if a person was not working I was responsible I did not pass the buck and blame others for my inability to effectively utilize the people that worked in my area.

I think people kind of miss the point that management agrees to a contract, if a union person is not producing according to the contract then management has the right and responsibility to correct the problem.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 28 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 2:38:37 PM

Two masters? Are you some bodies master? The first time you used that terminology with me would be the last time, you don't own the people who work for you, you are exactly why workers need unions



I'm not sure whats got your Sunday school nose bent out of shape? and you wonder why we have problems, you have no idea what im talking about? good Lord.


I have no doubt that I was right on target with you the more you write the clearer it becomes, you think you walk on water and as I stated it is employers just like you that are why we need unions


Do you consider reading as one of your skills? Just wondering since only 7% of the work force is now union as I said in an earlier entry



you really dont want to go down the road with me bub..... you appear like a Monday morning armchair psychoanalyst trying to tell others what they are supposedly thinking in spite of what was actually said.


I just repeated what you said,correct me if I am wrong did you not use the word "master" to describe your position or the owners of company, that is the way it was before unions organized. You continue showing just why unions had to organize you go from "master" to "bub"


Again I can understand why you dislike unions, you want to be the master not the employer.What amazes me is that you are still in business



You know nothing about me pops, This is the kind of rhetoric I would expect from the likes of you,your post appears to me as nothing more than a slow drip of psychobabble slathered over top of an excuse like strawberry frosting on cow droppings. The first bite may be sweet, but the rest of it is pure sh!t


The more you type the more confident I am that the unions are really needed


Second I dont treat my employees like crap, I dont know where you've been hanging out, but people who works for me enjoys a good living.


I guess I will just have to take your word for it unless maybe you want to take an informal survey from your employees to see what they really think, the question is would you care? That's why we need unions, with unions we don't have to wait and beg for wages or feel intimidated by those with a master complex


Third thing Mr Socialist , stop being so bitter because others chose the American dream and you have to work for a living.


I lived the american dream, chose what I wanted to do and enjoyed doing it.I earned a good living and deserved every penny I ever made. My daughter is a doctor, my grandson will be able to attend college or pursue a career that he wants, I am retired drawing two pensions and SS, I worked as a mechanical engineer for a large international chemical company and as a union craftman and never had a "master" complex.

I am not concerned for myself or mine I had and they have the most important thing in life, "Opportunity"

Did you notice how I got through this without reverting to name calling? Pretty good, EH
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 25 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 1:39:06 PM

Do you see it as once the current incarnation of unions passes that nothing like it could ever occur in any shape or form to address problems that arise?


This is the future I see, there will be the very rich and then the poor, BTW which category do you see yourself in? Me? I am fine retired drawing two pensions and SS, My daughter is a doctor, I have one grandson maybe he will follow his mother, but my guess is he will be fine.

Do I think the union organizers were hero's, no I know they were, because of the sacrifices they made I was able to earn a good living as a skilled craftsman.

This is what I see American workers earning 75 cents to 2.00 per hour living in homes they rent from the wealthiest 1% of our population, I see a once economically thriving country become a 3rd world economy.


Do you see anything similar to the health care issue? Where 90% are just fine, but it's not good enough, so everyone has to change for that last 10%?


You are very short sighted if you think that 90% are just fine and are going to stay that way, I predict that more and more people will be priced out of health insurance and people just like you are responsible for it.If you don't think it is going to touch you give it ten years and see if that number has grown to 30%
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 21 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 11:30:06 AM

Ive never been a fan of Unions, There is a fundamental problem with labor unions that cannot be ignored: a person can't answer to two masters; somebody has to be in charge.


Two masters? Are you some bodies master? The first time you used that terminology with me would be the last time, you don't own the people who work for you, you are exactly why workers need unions


While unions have done a lot of good and have helped workers avoid exploitation in the past,Fast forward today and you see that they also seem to have helped workers exploit employers. Perhaps it has been a gradual shift over time, with unions slowly accumulating more and more power.


Do you consider reading as one of your skills? Just wondering since only 7% of the work force is now union as I said in an earlier entry


As a business owner I believe Unions of today are evil and like kryptonite to Superman , Unions can kill a companies ability to make profit.


Again I can understand why you dislike unions, you want to be the master not the employer.What amazes me is that you are still in business
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 18 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 9:40:37 AM

If you can't go back and read the posts and see the "attitude" you displayed in your post, then trying to explain it here will not help.


Again if you can point out any thing I said that underminded what you do for a living, quote it for me. If I had some attitude that you found offensive quote it for me.


By the way ... you still never bothered to give any kind of detailed information on just what those teachers and other "union" workers are going to lose if the Wisconsin governor has his way.

How about instead of criticizing those of us who really aren't fond of unions, you tell us in a truthful way what is so bad about this?


Collective bargaining will be the immediate lost to the unionized workers


According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, collective bargaining is a:
Method whereby representatives of employees (unions) and employers negotiate the conditions of employment, normally resulting in a written contract setting forth the wages, hours, and other conditions to be observed for a stipulated period (e.g., 3 years). The term also applies to union-management dealings during the term of the agreement.


You may think that what happens here won't effect your ability to earn a living but you are wrong, your employer must now offer a competitive wage to keep you as an employee, if you can go to another employer and make more money for your skillset then you will probably change employers, do you want some one elses salary reduced? Are you being paid what you are worth? If not why? Who negoiates your wages or your other benefits?

On the surface this is about collective bargaining but what it is really about is destroying the democratic parties organized support base
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 17 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/24/2011 8:56:20 AM

Unions played an important part in addressing working conditions and pay etc. initially, now they have outlived their usefulness and only serve to drive up the cost of doing business in America.


When the republcans and tea baggers have accomplished their goal of eliminating the remaining 7% of unionized workers you may rethink your statement above, remember it was not the business owners that said we have to provide safe working conditions, we can't work an employee indefinitely without a break, we can't employ children, we have to provide an employeee with a descent wage living wage


The sole purpose of Unions now is self preservation..we have Laws that insure that working conditions are acceptable, that there is no discrimination in the work place, and that Employees are paid for all of the hours that they work.


All things that you take for granted that were won by unionized workers.Laws can be repealed when the carpetbaggers excuse me republican and tea baggers take control we will see how long it takes before they start to change the rules


Of course those in Unions are for Unions, who wouldn't want to be paid 20 plus an hour for a job that can be done by someone getting paid 12 per hour?......In Indiana all of the factories and distribution centers that are Unionized hire from temporary agencies ...the agencies are paid more per hour than the employees receives but it shows that the Jobs that Union (skilled?) employees can do can be done by non union minimally trained employees who are willing to work for much less than Union employees.


Lets see I am a skilled craftsman I went to school at night for 4 years and worked in the crafts with a master craftsmen, you have no idea of what it takes to become a master craftsperson, I worked as a carpenter and millwright,

http://www.ehow.com/how_4866148_become-carpenters-apprentice.html

It's apparent that you have little to no knowledge of what being a skilled craftsmen requires.

I don't minimize the skills of any working person, can you drive a fork lift? a truck. Like I told another poster if you can fix a leaking faucet have at it but a plumber does every thing from the print to the finished product, if you can build a hip roof or lay out and build stairs have at it, if you can rewire your house or install a new service have at it, if you can change the brakes on your car or install a new water pump have it.

$200.00 dollars to fix your leaking faucet, you only know what you want to see. That plumber has to have the materials to do the repairs, they have to travel from their shop to your home, there are insurance requirements, licensing requirements, fleet maintenance, book keeping and if the contractor wants to stay in business he/she has to make competitive bids.

I have seen the pay scale for the people working in warehouses the normal range in NJ is $7 to $10 dollars an hour is that to much to pay for a persons skills, labor and time?

When the unions are gone the organized oppostion that exercises some control over the employer who has only one thing in mind $$$$$$$$$$$$

If we ever become competitve in the global market place our wages and any thing that contributes to the cost of the product will have to be equal to the countries we are competing with, how well will you and your children be able to survive on 75 cents per hour?
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 12 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/23/2011 9:27:58 PM

With the flood gates open, US manufacturing jobs flowed out faster than an indonesian tsunami!!!..............the end result is that a person would be hard pressed to find an appliance, device, toy, tool,TV made in the USA.....owners could have the same product made off-shore with far less overhead, and far-less hassle than in a union run plant in the USA.......we've seen a good example of that in the auto industry.

The flood gates were opened alright, when companies moved overseas and started paying 75 cents an hour and then shipping that product back to the USA. You can cry it's the unions but the truth is it's foreign made goods, if you think different try raising your family on the average salaries of workers in China or India.




having to call a plumber to fix a leaky fawcet, cost me $250.oo service charge alone!!!....


Who forced you to call a plumber? If you did you called because you did not have the skills needed or you were to lazy to fix it yourself, A plumber and incidently most of them that do residental work are not union. A union plumber has to go through 4 years of training and then if he/she wants to go into business for his/herself they have to apply for and pass a test to be licensed and then pay for insurance

When your dream of driving the remaining 7% of the unions out comes true, maybe then you will look back and appreciate what the unions meant to the american worker

http://money.howstuffworks.com/labor-union.htm/printable


In the 19th century, the Industrial Revolution produced a rapid expansion in factories and manufacturing capabilities. As workers moved away from agricultural work to factories, mines and other hard labor, many faced terrible working conditions: long hours, low pay and health risks. Many children worked in factories, and women and children generally received lower pay than men. The government did little to limit these injustices, and in the United States, along with much of the industrialized world, labor movements developed that lobbied for better rights and safer conditions.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 10 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/23/2011 9:05:48 PM

So when I asked that ... it appears that what I was really asking for was a boat load of attitude from the OP and judgment on my choice of work ... right?


A boat load of attitude, show me? I judged your chosen occupation, show me?
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 9 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/23/2011 9:00:29 PM

Ive never been a fan of Unions, There is a fundamental problem with labor unions that cannot be ignored: a person can't answer to two masters; somebody has to be in charge.


Two masters?


While unions have done a lot of good and have helped workers avoid exploitation in the past,Fast forward today and you see that they also seem to have helped workers exploit employers. Perhaps it has been a gradual shift over time, with unions slowly accumulating more and more power.


If your the employer and you allow your employees to dictate the terms of their contract who is to blame? Quit passing the buck this is not the blame game, your the employer


As a business owner I believe Unions of today are evil and like kryptonite to Superman , Unions can kill a companies ability to make profit.


As an American worker I know I can't live on the 75 cents an hour they pay a worker in China. I don't know what type of business you have but if it can be shipped overseas you won't be in business long.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 3 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/23/2011 3:43:51 PM
First no one forced management to agree to a contract, you can blame the union worker if you want to but management has to agree to the contract, if they did not want to they were free to say no.

I might be wrong but are you not a nurse? If you make 20 per hour you have a base of approxiamately 41,000. At 24,000 per year you are making 12.50 per hour. So maybe I was wrong maybe you are not a nurse, maybe you do not think your time and ability is worth more then 12.50 per hour, maybe if you worked in a profession where you were represented by a union your wage and living conditions would be better.

I was watching the news today and saw where they were going to pay a basketball player 63 million dollars for a three year contract and you are upset because a teacher makes 50,000 a year, teachers they are the people who teach our children. The top 400 people in our country have a combined income that is equal to the bottom 100,000,000 people and you have a problem with a teacher who makes 50,000 a year?

I worked in management and also as a union member so I got a real good look at what goes on, the men/women that worked for me made 20.00 per hour, spent 4 years in trade school they were union, and they were good at what they did, they earned thier pay check. Management for the most part spent to much time looking for ways to cut jobs and not nearly enough time looking for ways to improve quality and productivity

Unions are why you have a 40 hour work week, unions are why we have workers rights and descent working conditions and can make a wage that a family can live on. Do you think that what you do is worth more then 12.50 an hour?


Base Salary
•According to The PayScale Report as of May 2010, registered nurses average an hourly rate of $22.10 to $30.85, with overtime at $30.72 to $45.82. With annual bonuses of $233.61 to $1,904 and profit sharing of $312.70 to $2,037, total yearly compensation can reach $47,070 to $67,319.
Experience
•An increase in experience means an increase in pay, with new RNs earning $19.56 to $25.11 an hour. With one to four years of experience, they make $20.91 to $27.42, while at five to nine years, they receive $23.84 to $31.59. Finally, at 10 to 19 years, they get $25.53 to $34.04, and at 20 or more years, they are paid $26.59 to $35.62.

Read more: The Average RN Hourly Wage | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_6555837_average-rn-hourly-wage.html#ixzz1EpHvHov2


This country is not in trouble because of unions this country is in trouble because most of the people who make up the workforce do not have unions representing them, In 1981 35% of the workforce was unionized today only 7% of the workforce is unionized. This country is not in trouble because the people are organized and represented this country is in trouble because we have become so divided that we no longer work for the common good
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 1 (view)
 
UNIONS UNDER ATTACK
Posted: 2/23/2011 1:23:35 PM
Below you will see an article dealing with the republican governor of Wisconsin and a bill that is nothing more than an attempt by him and other republican governors to eliminate what remains of the unions.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110223/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions


MADISON, Wis. – On a prank call that quickly spread across the Internet, Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker was duped into discussing his strategy to cripple public employee unions, promising never to give in and joking that he would use a baseball bat in his office to go after political opponents.
Walker believed the caller was a conservative billionaire named David Koch, but it was actually a liberal blogger. The two talked for at least 20 minutes — a conversation in which the governor described several potential ways to pressure Democrats to return to the Statehouse and revealed that his supporters had considered secretly planting people in pro-union protest crowds to stir up trouble.
[Related: Largest labor unions in the U.S.]
The call also revealed Walker's cozy relationship with two billionaire brothers who have poured millions of dollars into conservative political causes, including Walker's campaign last year.
Walker compared his stand to that taken by President Ronald Reagan when he fired the nation's air-traffic controllers during a labor dispute in 1981.
"That was the first crack in the Berlin Wall and led to the fall of the Soviets," Walker said on the recording.
The audio was posted on the Buffalo Beast, a left-leaning website in New York, and quickly went viral.
[Related: What is a right-to-work law?]
Editor Ian Murphy told The Associated Press he carried out the prank to show how candidly Koch would speak with Walker even though, according to Democrats, he refuses to return their calls.
Murphy said he arranged the call Tuesday after speaking with two Walker aides, including his chief of staff. He made the call using Skype and recorded it.
Walker spokesman Cullen Werwie confirmed that it Walker's voice on the call.
The governor said he was ratcheting up the pressure on Senate Democrats to return to the Capitol a week after they fled to block the legislation. He said he supported a move to require them to come to the Capitol to pick up their paychecks rather than have them deposited directly.
[Related: History of stalling tactics in politics]
He also floated an idea to lure Democratic senators back to the Capitol for negotiations and then have the Senate quickly pass the bill while they are in talks.
Walker said aides were reviewing whether the GOP could hold a vote if Democrats were not physically in the Senate chamber but elsewhere in the building.
Democrats seized on Walker's recorded comments as evidence that the governor plans to go beyond budget cuts to crushing unions.
"This isn't about balancing the budget. This is about a political war," Rep. Jon Richards of Milwaukee yelled Wednesday on the floor of the state Assembly.
[Related: First person: Wis. budget bill threatens my family]
The governor's plan would strip most public employees of their collective bargaining rights and force them to pay more for their health care and retirement benefits. Unions could not collect mandatory dues and would face a vote of its members every year to stay in existence.
The proposal has set off more than a week of protests at the Capitol.
The GOP-controlled state Assembly began debating the bill Tuesday and was still hearing dozens of Democratic amendments nearly 24 hours later before taking a break. Assembly Speaker Jeff Fitzgerald said he expected to take a vote on the bill by the end of the day.
On the call, Walker said he expected the anti-union movement to spread across the country and he had spoken with the governors of Ohio and Nevada. The man pretending to be Koch seemed to agree, telling Walker, "You're the first domino."
"Yep, this is our moment," Walker responded.
The remarks showed Walker's private relationship with David Koch. He and his brother, Charles, own Koch Industries Inc., which is the largest privately-owned company in America and has significant operations in Wisconsin.
Its political action committee gave $43,000 to Walker's campaign, and David Koch gave $1 million to the Republican Governors' Association, which funded ads attacking Walker's opponent in last year's election.
[Related: Comparison of state anti-union bills]
The Kochs also give millions to support Americans For Prosperity, a conservative business group that launched a $320,000 television ad campaign in favor of Walker's legislation Wednesday.
On the recording, after Walker said he would be willing to meet with Democratic leaders, the caller said he should bring a baseball bat to negotiations.
Walker laughed and responded that he had "a slugger with my name on it."
The caller suggested he was thinking about "planting some troublemakers" among the protesters, and Walker said his administration had thought about doing that, too, but decided against it. Walker said the protests eventually would die because the media would stop covering them.
At the end of the call, the prankster says: "I'll tell you what Scott, once you crush these **stards, I'll fly you out to Cali and really show you a good time."
"All right, that would be outstanding," Walker replies, adding that the standoff is "all about getting our freedoms back"
The caller: "Absolutely. And you know, we have a little bit of vested interest as well" and laughs.
Werwie, the governor's spokesman, said the phone call "shows that the governor says the same thing in private as he does in public and the lengths that others will go to disrupt the civil debate Wisconsin is having."
Walker's budget bill also allows his administration to sell power plants that heat and cool state buildings to private companies without any bids.
Critics have seized on this provision, saying they are convinced the Koch brothers' business interests would be able to buy power plants on the cheap, and then profit by running them and driving up the price of energy.
Koch Industries has denied any interest in buying the plants, and Walker's administration argues the private sector, not state government, should run the facilities. Republicans tried to privatize Wisconsin's power plants in 2005, but the plan was vetoed by Gov. Jim Doyle.
Immediately after taking office, Walker also pushed for legislation that would limit damage awards in lawsuits against many businesses.
Koch Industries lobbied for the bill, and Walker signed it into law last month. Walker is also pushing for another Koch Industries-backed bill to weaken state regulations by giving him the power to approve all rules proposed by agencies, a proposal that is moving quickly through the Legislature.
Koch Industries recently opened a lobbying office in downtown Madison a block from the Capitol. Seven lobbyists have registered in Wisconsin to lobby for various Koch Industries companies.
Even before recordings of the call surfaced, the government watchdog group Common Cause in Wisconsin released a statement saying Walker's agenda matched with that of Koch Industries.
"Koch Industries and other corporate citizens have legitimate interests in Wisconsin, but their demonstrated willingness to push large amounts of money into state politics has given them a dangerously outsized voice," said Bob Edgar, the group's national president. That voice, he said, is "now demanding a return on its investments."
___
Associated Press writer Scott Bauer contributed to this report.
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 76 (view)
 
The one place in America where Americans have almost zero rights is ?
Posted: 2/22/2011 8:06:13 AM
http://www.tsa.gov/


TSA Week at a Glance: 02-07-11 through 02-13-115 artfully concealed prohibited items found at checkpoints
7 firearms found at checkpoints
10 passengers were arrested after investigations of suspicious behavior or fraudulent travel documents
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 74 (view)
 
The one place in America where Americans have almost zero rights is ?
Posted: 2/21/2011 4:44:45 PM

Man you sure drag the party line right along. Can't convince you!


Finally out pops the real problem, it's not really about whether a scanner can offer more protection then a trained preceptionist it's all about the party line, maybe for you it is but for me it's all about being able to safely board a passenger plane in one place and getting off safely in another.

If the scanner failed to pick up the weapon then the scanner needs to worked on if the people monitoring the scanner failed then they need to be dealt with, neither failure would make me trust a preceptive person to pick up on someone boarding a passenger jet with plastic explosives wrapped arond their waist. If nothing more it shows that the TSA is testing to make sure that man/woman/scanner is functioning properly
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 72 (view)
 
The one place in America where Americans have almost zero rights is ?
Posted: 2/21/2011 12:47:34 PM

hahaha

Okay, she goes through 5 different machines with different crews operating it and nobody catches it. And your response is to think that she just got 5 bad apples in randomly chosen crews? Think about this: 100% failure rate. This isn't one isolated incident where a crew just wasn't paying attention.


I went back and read the article again, I don't see where it says she went back through 5 different machines with 5 different crews. This whole article is based on nothing more then what one unidentified person claimed happened but lets just say it happened this just goes to show why we need more techinical advanced ways to make air travel as safe as possible I do not care how well people are able to pick up on suspicious behavior people are fallible, the scanners did not fail it was the person working the scanner that failed
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 71 (view)
 
America's Single Greatest Problem as a Nation
Posted: 2/21/2011 12:24:14 PM

I'm not a regular watcher but from what I've seen they're pretty good. Certainly better than the American establishment media.


How about the media of common sence, you know when you hear a lie you recognize it as a lie and instead of giving the lie credibility you expose it for what it is. For instance lets use the question of whether President Obama was eligible to run for President did we really need any news media foreign or American to know that he was eligible? Who in their right mind would think the RNC would allow a person to run who was not eligible, would the DNC support a non eligible person to run for president?

As far as I am concerned IMO it does not take super intellect to do a little research if needed to make a fact based decision. people support lies because they want to
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 70 (view)
 
The one place in America where Americans have almost zero rights is ?
Posted: 2/21/2011 11:11:54 AM

The TSA insider who blew the whistle on the test also said that none of the TSA agents who failed to spot the gun on the scanned image were disciplined. The source said the agents continue to work the body scanners today.

Wansley said that is a problem.

"This was only a test, but it's critically important that you do something, because if that person failed in the real environment, then you have a problem," he said.

The TSA did not deny that the tests took place or the what the results were.

The agency would only provide the following statement:


"Our security officers are one of the most heavily tested federal workforces in the nation. We regularly test our officers in a variety of ways to ensure the effectiveness of our technology, security measures and the overall layered system. For security reasons, we do not publicize or comment on the results of covert tests, however advanced imaging technology is an effective tool to detect both metallic and nonmetallic items hidden on passengers."

TSA agents who spoke to a reporter agreed that the body-imaging scanners are effective -- but only if the officers monitoring them are paying attention.


I think you might have accidently cherry picked your information, It's only common sence that a machine is no better then the person that is using it, brings me back to the point of having preceptive security agents, their best chance of picking out a terrorist is by profiling. Believe it or not some terrorist might look like a normal Anerican what ever that is.

The scanner only sees an image, if an agent is not properly trained the image means nothing, now just guessing but I am willing to bet that the program can be improved to set off an alarm that will increase the effectiveness of the scanner, I will still entrust the scanner with my safety and the safety of my family.


peon
I try not to revert to personal attacks, maybe my preception of what you meant was wrong
 EarlzP
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 68 (view)
 
The one place in America where Americans have almost zero rights is ?
Posted: 2/21/2011 9:18:01 AM

Okay explain the "power of preception"
Sure, they have employees who are trained in behavioral analysis they watch people and look for involuntary physical and physiological reactions that people exhibit in response to a fear of being discovered....because of Political Correctness they have been cowed and are reluctant to question suspicious persons for fear of being called racist , engaging in racial profiling or any other type of discrimination that can be alleged.


Okay you trust your well being to another person's power of preception and I will trust mine to the power of a scanner, I hope your person did not have a late night or maybe an argument with their spouse or any thing else going on that will influence their power of preception


Your post is a great example of what happens, your first reaction was to imply discrimination or racial profiling regarding Muslims...


I am just trusting my power of reality, I have no doubt that racial profiling exists, but you can deny it all you want,
 
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