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 Author Thread: Introduction of Islam
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 39 (view)
Introduction of Islam
Posted: 12/5/2009 11:38:20 PM

- Not really. It is not just about translation. It is more about knowing your history, context of the verses and then you would be able to make sense of any religion

No really, it's all about translation. The mere fact you need to mention "context" and "history" and "making sense of religion" are all unnecessary forks in the road. Religious people often talk about "right" and "wrong" as being black and white, clear cut and unmistakeably opposite to each other. It's strange then, the texts they claim to get these "truths" from are so unnecessarily ambiguous.

People don't represent a religion

They don't? Then the mormons who knocked on my door the other day must have been representing what?...table tennis? Of course people represent their religion, in the same way a franchise owner represents the parent company.

It is the scriptures that represent the religion

No the scriptures job is to give misleading information that can be used by anyone to justify any act, passive or aggressive. This is why they are completely worthless for anything other than literary interest.

As for your comment on Islam, it is simply your own personal thoughts and opinions and has nothing to do with the religion unless you are going to provide us evidence IN CONTEXT from primary source of Islam to back up your claims.

Of course it's my "own personal thoughts and opinions" lol.
As I watch innocent men, women and children being blown to pieces by a lunatic who imagines he's doing "gods will" , my "thoughts" tell me what a disgusting act this is to do to a fellow human being. Then I develop an "opinion" on how I feel about it all. In this case my "opinion" would probably be something like...hmmm, imagine what a better place the planet would be without the theistic mind bending and twisting iron age writings to justify crimes against humanity.
As for providing evidence IN CONTEXT as you put it, well, I guess I'd point to the stoning to death of adulterous women in Saudi Arabia's particularly gruesome translation of koranic literature, or maybe the indoctrination of young children by Islamic fundamentalists to twist their young minds to the point where they think scientific reasoning is a ploy by satan and the west to corrupt the true word of the prophet, or how about the sectarian bombings of rival mosques etc etc etc ad nauseum. Every one of these acts can be "justified" within Islamic teachings.
Of course, you may well think that IN CONTEXT all these things are perfectly acceptable, in which case good luck with that.

And try not to do google searches on the internet and copy and paste verses since you would be asked the explain the context of the verses.

Dude, you and I both know the Koran is riddled with passages that plainly recommend death and suffering to "unbelievers", aduterers, apostates etc and any fool can quickly look these up on the net so lets cut out the bullshit and call a spade a spade. Your bleatings about context and translation are nothing more than apologistic political correctness to explain a doctrine that, ultimately is anti human, pro death and completely unnecessary.
I find it laughable that someone who chooses to believe something purely on the basis of subjective faith has the nerve to ask another for objective evidence to back up their points, especially when said evidence is literally contained in the very passages they claim to take their world view from. The irony is dripping thickly....
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 36 (view)
Introduction of Islam
Posted: 12/5/2009 3:33:52 PM
In reading this thread from start to finish it's fairly obvious that whether you follow Islam or Christianity it's all about translation and therefore worthless.

The Abrahamic religions have had thousands of years to get it right and failed miserably.

Actions speak louder than words and by actions alone Islam is definitely not a religion of peace.

The fact is, human rights can only really exist in a secular society.

Why "follow" a god or a prophet when all you have to be a decent person is within you from birth?

Worshipping the supernatural seems a very odd thing to do...
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 125 (view)
Has God always existed?
Posted: 11/15/2009 5:11:21 AM

no such thing a just a bit
No sin goes unpunished......the ten commandments is an example of the sins
that lead to death....mortal sins!

This god of yours..Yahweh, is that his name? He sounds like he could do with a sense of humour.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 119 (view)
Has God always existed?
Posted: 11/14/2009 11:48:06 PM
Kissupon, my apologies for not being clearer.
I should have asked, which acts that a human commits are "sinful" and deserving of divine retribution and which are just a bit naughty and will go unpunished?
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 115 (view)
Has God always existed?
Posted: 11/14/2009 10:50:00 PM

so you would rather live Eternally on earth at it is today, starving children and all, than see God clean up sin so we can live Eternally without pain and suffering??.

No, I'd rather live a fixed term on earth[which I will, and I can prove it] and see an end to religion, which in turn would lead to a decent secular world where millions of Africans aren't dying of AIDS because of a religious doctrine that won't allow the use of condoms.
What on earth is this "sin" you talk about?
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 112 (view)
Has God always existed?
Posted: 11/14/2009 10:20:20 PM
Jesus is Pure Love

Ahh, the sort of pure love that prepares a place of eternal torture for those that think his existance is delusional nonsense. Nice.
I would have thought anything to do with love would involve some form of compassion and not punishment.
This Jesus character doesn't sound anymore pleasant that the other guy the Muslims follow.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 92 (view)
Has God always existed?
Posted: 11/14/2009 8:51:15 PM

If God came today........He would look like Jesus.....duhhhhhhhhhhhhh lolol

So...god would look like a normal man... not very convincing really is it....

Would he do something really amazing like maybe...oh I don't know... make New Zealand sink into the ocean while levitating it's inhabitants so they don't drown?

Cos if he just looks like a normal man then, well, call me an old stick in the mud, but I'm afraid I'd still have to be a wee bit skeptical
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 88 (view)
Has God always existed?
Posted: 11/14/2009 8:17:05 PM

There is tons of evidence........of his existence......God is only an argument for some!
The many miracles all over the world.......look it up......the visions.........the bleeding
crucifix......ect ect......for years and years

A "miracle" is simply an event with no rational explanation available at that time. When looked into with a healthy degree of skepticism they invariably turn out to have a natural [or in some cases deviously human] origin.
Besides, don't you think if an entity so powerful and awe inspiring existed, he/she/it would choose to announce their presence by making some red dye appear from a crucifix? Call me a killjoy but I'd need something a little more convincing than that I'm afraid.

But even if God came down right now.............would that even be enough evidence

Yes it would, but I'm curious kissupon, what do you think he would look like?
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 83 (view)
Has God always existed?
Posted: 11/14/2009 7:51:43 PM
why dont' you unbelievers' and your inconsistency in regards to God ....

Unbelievers ? You make the claim a supernatural entity exists so all we are really doing is unbelieving in a thought you have in your head, what's so wong with that? Do you call people who don't believe in fairies unbelievers too?

evolving....christian religion has done a pretty good job at getting it right.

No it hasn't, it has been a breeding ground for bigotry, dishonesty, misogyny, child abuse and other nasty behavior. It's a demonstratably failed system. The Christian religion in 2009 is a shadow of it's former self. It's had to keep changing and in most cases ignoring most of it's dogma in order to keep up with secular values.

"I am the beginning and the end" says the Lord.

When did he say that? I didn't hear him, there's no evidence of that anywhere apart from in a very old book written by desert dwelling tribesmen who thought the earth was flat.

and that he is......believe it or not!

As the evidence for what you claim, is non existant, I'll choose not to believe it.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 78 (view)
Has God always existed?
Posted: 11/14/2009 5:58:56 PM
Impossible question to answer of course.

Even well known atheist and all round nice guy Richard Dawkins himself does not claim 100% atheism and puts himself on a 6.9 on a scale of 7, with 1 being absolute certainty in a god and 7 being absolute certainty in no god. The reason Dawkins does this is because he allows [like all rational people should] for the possibility of new evidence to emerge that could point to a "supermind" at the heart of everything. A long shot of course but completely logical.

For my own input I would argue that it's better for humanity to assume there is no sky fairy watching over us and the only way forward is to take responsibility in our own actions in a democratic secular society that respects human rights and the environment.

Religion has had thousands of years to get it right and has failed dismally.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 8 (view)
My fiance broke up with me out of nowhere.
Posted: 5/11/2009 7:12:28 AM
The fact that this idiot is taunting you on messenger shows how lucky you are you did'nt marry him. He's a loser and you're better off without him.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 3 (view)
'you can have any girl you want' -she said.
Posted: 5/11/2009 6:56:35 AM
Similar thing happened to me. My ex-wife and I tried to do the friend thing for a while but it just got too confusing, everytime I was around her I'd start to develop feelings again so I backed off but she kept ringing and texting with some pretext or other so in the end I told her no more and we've now gone our seperate ways. It was the best thing for my sanity and you have to do this too in my opinion. It may seem tough at the start but it's the only way. Good luck.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 20 (view)
Tri Nations
Posted: 9/19/2008 11:56:40 PM
There's another game coming up in November being played in Hong Kong between the two best Rugby teams in the world [Forget about the Springboks for now]. Not sure of the exact date but it should be another ripper.
I think by 2011 Deans is going to have the Wallabies in the number one position. I hope so because the All Blacks play their best when they're not the favourites.

And yes, the Bledisloe is much more important than the Tri Nations. At least to this ex Kiwi.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 8 (view)
Should have never remained friends...have now lost that too.
Posted: 9/19/2008 8:39:56 PM
I know what you're going through and you have my sympathy. My ex wife and I were the best of friends outside the marriage too, but I had to cut all contact in the end because it became too painfull to see her on a regular basis ,and the thought of her being with another guy was something I just did'nt want to know about. You're right about it taking time, that's about the only thing that will make you get over this. And while you will never forget her, you will feel better eventually. All the best.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 8 (view)
R.I.P. Richard Wright - songwriter keyboardist founding member Pink Floyd 1943-2008
Posted: 9/17/2008 5:12:38 AM
I did'nt know he was sick either, it must have happened pretty quickly.
Saw the 87 tour in Melbourne Australia, which Rick opened with the opening chords of "shine on".
He was such an important member in the early days and his influencial style shaped every album up to and including "Animals".
"The Great Gig in the Sky" was a classic piece of modern musical art directly inspired by him. In my opinion an under rated Floyd member. He and Gilmour were responsible for shaping those wonderfully strange musical landscapes.

Vale Rick.

Rest in Peace mate.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 12 (view)
Prayers Actually Removed Pastor's Cancer!!!
Posted: 8/30/2008 9:41:27 PM
This guys church is literally a stonesthrow away from me [ no pun intended]. I drive past it nearly every day. It's called "The Edge" [presumably to make it sound cool to the younger generation]. A huge sign on the front states - HOPE TRUTH LOVE.

All good words but ya don't need to believe in a higher power to experience them or live by them.

You've got to wonder where he would be if he was'nt born into a religious mind set. He possibly would have viewed porn as most guys do and not felt any guilt from it. He possibly would'nt have had to go through this whole attention seeking charade that in my opinion was a need to show those around him his true self.

The thing is, once you accept who you are, everything else just seems to flow from that. Why pray to an invisible sky fairy to "show the way" when all the answers are available within, or at least fom a good councillor
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 9 (view)
interested how many people have been asked for loans after one or two dates
Posted: 8/30/2008 9:13:42 PM
Sad thing is there's probably guys out there with low self esteem who would be conned. But I guess they could always go on Judge Judy and get it back...
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 10 (view)
Will I ever move on?
Posted: 8/30/2008 6:56:29 PM
Do you want him to be truthful? Or do you want to move on?
This guy is having a ball. He's got his cake and he's eating it as well. He does'nt share the intense feelings you have for him. His ego is in the stratosphere while he keeps you on the backburner and has a ball with his new "adventures".
Bottom line is, he's not the guy for you and you will never be able to trust what he says.
Only misery awaits you if you carry on this way of life.

The recipe for moving on is this - rid your life of him.Do not talk to him. Do not answer emails, ph calls etc. Treat him like he is dead. Once you take control his hold over you will cease to be and you'll be surprised how quickly your life will get back on track.
In a relatively short time you'll wonder what you ever saw in this guy and your heart will be eager for new romance.
All the best
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 22 (view)
happiness - what makes you really happy?
Posted: 8/12/2008 3:04:53 AM
Helping people is a real buzz, being with good friends and learning to stay "in the moment" and ignoring negative thoughts.

And anything that produces gut wrenching laughter is a dead giveaway
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 8 (view)
Mythbusters - an episode on Creationism and Natural Selection
Posted: 8/10/2008 2:11:16 AM
Good story. It's about time someone challenged the sleepy majority and woke them up to the difference between critical thinking and delusional religion.

Well done Adam Savage
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 9 (view)
What is wrong with just believing?
Posted: 8/10/2008 2:04:25 AM

I've worked with Muslim women who prayed regularly but never discussed their religion with me.

That's because they felt you would'nt understand and would see them as even more different than what you do now.

That's what religion does, it creates barriers.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 8 (view)
What is wrong with just believing?
Posted: 8/10/2008 1:57:57 AM
Is it to much to ask just to have faith though? I'm not out to change anybodys mind, its 12, im bored, and felt like making this topic, and i often get bashed for believing in god. so, whats wrong with wanting to know why there is no faith, its very different then things were 30 years ago, society needs everything to be proved, I just wanna know why the hell does it matter if he is or isn't real? just doesn't make any sense to me, but I was raised as if it was the 70's, 80's where more people seemed to believe in god than find a reason to disprove his existence.

I think it's great that you're sitting there at 12 and contemplating supernatural ideas.
Tomorrow nights homework is to imagine reality by purely natural causes.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 6 (view)
Cutting the link
Posted: 8/8/2008 2:11:12 AM
Your not over reacting. It's nice that she has moved on . That doesnt mean that you have to be on the same page. You may never feel comfortable being just friends. That's ok. Those would be your feelings and not for someone else to say if they are right or wrong.

You do knowI hope that at some point you have to move on from the past. If you dont you are giving the past control over your future.

I hear your words loud and clear. Thankyou.
Everyones advice has been great and is helpful. I actually feel quite humbled by everyones positive wisdom.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 4 (view)
Cutting the link
Posted: 8/7/2008 11:52:43 PM
Thanks guys, what almost all of you are saying makes a lot of sense and is helpful.
tampa, what you wrote is right on the mark.
Thanks to all of you.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 1 (view)
Cutting the link
Posted: 8/7/2008 7:10:32 PM
I was married to a woman who I loved deeply for 5 years. The situation deteriorated gradually due to her inability to get on with my 13 yo daughter and my inability to handle the stress and anxiety that went along with that.
It's been ten months since we split and I'm having trouble moving on. She met a guy online soon after we split and moved away to another city but now she's back and wants to do "the friend" thing. I can't do this because I still love her and it's agony being near her knowing she now does'nt feel the same as me. I told her this the other day and said I needed space and did'nt want to see her again for the sake of my sanity. She basicallycan't accept this and thinks I'm over reacting.
Am I over reacting? Do I need to "grow up" ? Or have I done the right thing ?
Any advice would be welcome thanks.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 20 (view)
When Horrible Things Happen to Decent People
Posted: 8/6/2008 2:32:22 AM
Sorry for your friend and anyone else who has to deal with crap like this. In my opinion it simply comes down to statistics. Whether we're a "good decent individual" or a "complete and utter scumbag", is irrelevant. Disease strikes whenever and whoever is next on the list, be it genetic, environmental or just plain bad luck and there's no rhyme or reason to it.
I hope your friend recovers.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 48 (view)
Believing in the Bible
Posted: 8/5/2008 4:41:59 PM

Take a look at creation how every animal is created perfectly to survive in its surroundings

Only in the same way that a pothole is a perfect size and shape to contain the rainwater it holds.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 4 (view)
what to do....
Posted: 8/4/2008 3:14:47 AM
Mate, first of all , commiserations. It's gut wrenching when this sort of thing happens.
You did all the right things. You stopped yourself from coming on too strong, and by the sound of it, you did'nt gush all over her and scare her off.
Sounds to me like she's the sort of person who , when in a relationship, [even in the early stages] gives everything and puts her whole heart and soul into it just to discover if "this is the one".
In her head it has run it's course and , even though it's hard, you just have to accept it.

If you witheld part of yourself, then by all means contact her and show her who you actually are. Otherwise you'll always be wondering.

If that does'nt work and you want to remain friends, then by all means do that. But take it from someone who has been there... if you really love this woman to the core of your being, and it's unrequieted, then be prepared for pain like you've never known. My advice is to walk away and try to forget.

Time will heal. All the best
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 42 (view)
They Think Im in a phase
Posted: 8/3/2008 7:10:05 PM
xcentricity, what your family are doing is repugnant in the extreme and all that can be said in their defense is that it's probably coming more from ignorance than spite.
Hang in there, it's never easy being in a minority [especially a minority of one] , but it will get easier as you get older and create your own network of like minded loving, supportive friends.

VVendy, understand this.
Atheism says one thing and one thing only about a person-

They have no belief in god/gods.
That is all.
It is not a "lifestyle" anymore than disbelieving in fairies at the bottom of the garden is a lifestyle.
It is not a religion, any more than disbelieving in aliens is a religion.
It is simply a rejection of your claim that a supernatural, invisible being, exists.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 18 (view)
His mobile is switched off!
Posted: 8/3/2008 6:44:50 AM

I met a nice guy online 6 months ago and we started dating.

Sounds good.

Saw him nearly every weekend since we met and sometimes during the week.

It's heating up, they sound like they like each other.

He lives about sixty miles away and usually came to mine which I guess was a bit of a commute.

He sounds like he really likes you and is doing the traditional thing.

After a few months he suggested a couple of times that I think about moving closer to where he lives as I want to look for another job anyway so we could see each other more

the future's looking good. From what you're saying, both of you are into each other.

but I wasnt sure about him so didnt really reply.

There's yer answer. Hello?
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 28 (view)
Was this a sign? Weird experience at a monastary.
Posted: 8/2/2008 9:14:47 PM

It is not widely believed that some people can see spirits, and communicate with them, however a cottage industry has sprung up around the phenomenon,

yes, I understand that that extremely talented spirit communicator, John Edwards, has perfected his art so well, that he now has several cottages, a couple of mansions, and a yacht worth more than I'll make in a lifetime.

Pity the spirits did'nt tell him to pour the money back into the community and help his fellow man.

Those crazy, wacky, selfish supernatural beings...
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 27 (view)
Was this a sign? Weird experience at a monastary.
Posted: 8/2/2008 8:28:00 PM
gottalight, I'm really sorry for your loss and feel for you mate but you've gotta[no pun intended] realise that grief can cause some strange things to happen to your subjective reasoning. I mean, what the hell do you mean by saying you were "petitioned" by spirits and this stuff about removing her cranium from her posterior?

That's pretty left of centre stuff mate.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 26 (view)
Was this a sign? Weird experience at a monastary.
Posted: 8/2/2008 8:21:17 PM

It's not about agreeing to disagree, it's about gottalight stating he has a scientific hypothesis & when asked what it is, he either changes the subject or refuses to answer a simple question & then goes off on a tangent about his dead wife having her head removed from her a$$hole by spirits.

Hey Limey, I've been away for awhile but good to see some things never change. Keep calling those spades spades you pommy **stard lol
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 14 (view)
Was this a sign? Weird experience at a monastary.
Posted: 8/1/2008 10:46:35 PM

Clearly you were sodomized by a rapist ghost who absorbed the liquid energy of said bottle in order to carry out it's deed.

Using Occam's razor, that would probably be the only logical conclusion SI.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 12 (view)
Was this a sign? Weird experience at a monastary.
Posted: 8/1/2008 10:15:36 PM
C'mon guys leave him alone. Everyone knows if something malfunctions, and there's no obvious answers, then supernatural forces are at work.

I always remember [and excuse me if I've told this story before] going to bed one night in a country hotel with a full bottle of whisky on the bedside cabinet. Now this is where it gets really weird.
When I awoke the next morning, not only did I have a really bad headache, but the bottle was empty and I had all this ectoplasm down the front of my pj's, and no recollection of the night before.

Very disturbing stuff.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 13 (view)
deleting for the second time...
Posted: 8/1/2008 10:01:50 PM

because most of them STINK

Yep, you're a christian alright. The defeatist, insulting tone gives it away.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 2 (view)
The Break-Up Blues!!!
Posted: 7/21/2008 9:19:25 PM
I feel for ya mate, I'm still working through a major breakup that occured 10 months ago.
Time is really the only thing that eases the pain. Keeping busy and being around other people is important to take your mind off it. Leaning on friends is also highly recommended. The occasional "drowning you're sorrows" session can relieve the pain at least temporarily.
But ultimately, it's time.

All the best
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 11 (view)
Pope apologizes for clergy sex abuse.
Posted: 7/21/2008 3:30:06 AM

I think the Pope's apology was a step in the right direction and should be ackowledged and used as a foundation to build upon. Got to start somewhere.

I agree.

Hopefully it will also create a realisation by the theistic population at large that it matters little what you're beliefs are. Abuse and empathy are products of the human species and will always be with us whether we believe in Yahweh, Zeus, Thor or no god at all.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 2 (view)
Rich church's
Posted: 7/6/2008 2:10:22 AM
Good question.
I believe it has to do with the fact that ultimately, religion changes to correspond with secular society.
Religion purports to know what is important with respect to human wellbeing but, when all is said and done, it is society WITHOUT religion that dictates the terms, and religion, in the end, follows along like a lost sheep.

In other words, all religions [in a very human way] say, "look at us" we must be closer to the ultimate truth because our place of worship as SO much bigger and better than the other "also rans".
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 17 (view)
God is in everyone! Some people believe this, but...
Posted: 7/5/2008 9:53:55 PM

Critical thinking, fault finding perfectionism. These are not so good.

Quite right! Now quickly inform the medical research labs around the planet to stop being so damn pedantic!!
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 8 (view)
Cliff Richards'
Posted: 7/5/2008 9:44:49 PM

If only he'd bitten the heads off hamsters or done something equally naughty..

There is something just a bit TOO nice about Cliff. And I wish he'd let the rest of us know where that youth fountain is he uses...or it possible..he's really involved in some sort of non-aging unholy union with Satan himself.
In an early Rowan Atkinson skit where he plays Satan meeting all the souls who worshipped the wrong god, he [Atkinson] introduces himself by saying...

"Hello, I am 'The Devil'...or some of you may know me as 'Cliff'...."

We may be onto something here...
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 6 (view)
Is Rock the Devils' Music?
Posted: 7/4/2008 10:11:39 PM
Oh Cliff
what if you were
a cliff

Rik from "The Young Ones"
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 3 (view)
Is Society Molesting Children?
Posted: 7/1/2008 8:08:35 AM

In modern society, we see children as young as twelve modeling, sexy styles... We hear pornaceous, or is it pornic music, like musical pornography. They have access to it with their TVs, radios and computers. The net is 60% porn, and the chat rooms are open.

This is certainly an issue we, as parents need to address, however just because kids are seeing/hearing about ****ing does not mean society is about to fall around our ears. We need to study the phenomenon and find out what the consequences are....if any

Governors propose to teach children things like the merits of the homosexual lifestyle. How to grow marijuana

Are you suggesting the homosexual lifestyle does not have it's merits?

Cannabis use here in Australia is being discussed widely and studies have suggested heavy use of this [more potent than before] drug has serious mental health issues.

They are hindered regarding admiring benevolent characters in history, taught cynicism, to be critical, not of evil but of everything

Certainly the church hinders an appreciation of people like Darwin and Voltaire.
Cynicism and criticism are both healthy options in a world increasingly plagued by the demise of rational thought. To question everything is a good thing is it not?

Many take the option of suicide.

Youth suicide is a concern for parents in western society but recent studies here have shown it to be on the decline

There is a culture of free sex, and doing what feels good, and materialism. Also drug use.

Drug use has always existed. "Free sex" is not necessarily a bad thing in itself and has always been an irrational problem for puritan christians for some strange reason and materialism is not nessessary a bad thing, it does drive an economy which lets us all enjoy a high standard of living in those areas of the planet where it exists.

And people question parents rights to discipline there children, often we even hear of children taking their parents to the courts over it.

If you mean discipline by whacking a kid to "teach" him or her a lesson then yes, this behaviour has certanly been under the microscope in recent years, but, any parent is free to discipline their kids without the use of violence. Surely you don't advocate discipline/punishment where physical harm is involved?

I agree that the sexualisation of our young people through the media needs to be carefully scrutinised but, by and large, I believe we, as a society, are not doing too badly. We've come so far in addressing various human rights issues that, a few short years ago, were still under the uncaring jurasdiction of the religious hierarchy and apathetic public officials.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 788 (view)
/////\\\\\ 6 Lines or Less //////\\\\\\
Posted: 6/30/2008 7:10:37 AM
We are
when all is said and done
but wind blown flatulance
on the rays of the setting
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 11 (view)
Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/6/2008 2:28:14 AM

It's not childish to believe in God

It most certainly is'nt .

What's childish is falling for a version that is accepted on the basis of culture.

Western culture = Judeo Christian belief system [or "the Lord"]

Arabic culture, = hello Mohammed

Eastern culture,=,well, take your pick....

and the list goes on
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 8 (view)
Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/2/2008 4:54:03 AM

I would say that people react more out of fear itself in the moment, be it death or whatever circumstances they face, and fear will cause a person to do things they wouldn't normally do.


Turning to God out of fear, is not truly turning to God imo, it is more a last ditch attempt to preserve the self interests, which I consider contrary to everything God represents..

Then your God must be one of integrity,

in which case He must respect at least a significant percentage of His atheist/agnostic "creations"

All the non believers out there who follow their creed of life without regular thought of deity, [an attitude they have arrived at because they follow a subjective lifestyle backed up with an objective reality], and who back it up by living unselfish, altruistic lives, should be worthy of the "expectations" of a higher power.

This is where the Abrahamic god fails dismally, at least in respect to the Christian and Muslim superstition, [I don't believe that is too strong a word to use].

On the one hand, these religions espouse "love and goodness" and generally being a "non offensive " person. But in the next breath, if a certain dogma is'nt followed, then no matter how much you follow your heart, you are left out of the club.
You are even tortured for your integrity by being given a one way ticket to Hades!

What the?!!!

Surely a true hearted atheist is more worthy of heaven than a half hearted theist and therefore , in reality, not only does He not exist, but, even if He did, He would'nt really give a shit anyway.

Apologies for getting off topic.

Result of a certain reaction between yeast and sugar.

Or two...
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 15 (view)
The God Who Wasn't There
Posted: 6/2/2008 3:38:55 AM

Okay so we have established that there is 'good evidence' within the NT supporting the existance of a historical Jesus by the very fact that we have 20+ early sources predicated on his existance. You have conceeded this much.

Unsure why you think I've conceded there is evidence of Christ's existence. My point was that there is no contemporary writings of his existence. None. Zero. Diddly squat.

This this is a conclusion it is not an argument. I mean thats a pretty big claim, how do you know, what is your evidence for this?

My evidence for this is the lack of evidence for the Gospels being a reliable source. They were written at least decades after the supposed death of Christ. Surely you must concede that this fact alone is very telling.

firstly the fact that we have 4 gospels, which acts as a series of checks and balances,as we have multiple sources detailing the same events.

Four fallacies does not a truth make. If Marks original writings were not based on "being there", then all those that follow are not worth anything either.

Secondly whenever it is posible to check the Gospels for outside facts, they prove themselves trustworthy time and again, occasionally aparent ambiguities have been cited as reasons for why the gospels cannot be trusted only for the Gospels to be proved right by archeology!

This is correct. Unfortunately for your argument, the science of archeology has dated said Gospels outside Christ's alleged timeframe.

To give you an example of this the existance of Pilate was doubted for a long time... until a tablet was discovered berring his name.

This is correct, and the tablet has been dated to the correct timeframe. Pilate's existence is entirely probable.

You cannot assume the Gospels are worthless because they detail the events of a man you 'decided' didnt exist in the first place!

I don't.

I assume they are worthless because they occur after the alledged timeframe.

This is circluar reasoning,

No it's not.

It's a logical assumption based on the lack of contemporary writings.

Jesus didnt exist ergo the gospels must be false?

This is not what I am saying.
Again, The Gospels were not written at the time of his supposed existence so therefore they are at best doubtful.

Thats just bad history you need to prove why they are false.

One more time. The Gospels exist, but they are in the wrong time frame.

I dont particularly want to get bogged down in talk over Alexander, but i would state you would prehaps expect the existance of a little more archeological evidence, for the conqueror of the known world, than a carpenters son.

Hardly. We are talking about "a carpenters son" who fed multitudes with a few loaves.
He also defied gravity by walking on water and he brought the dead back to life.
If there is good evidence for the life of a military conquerer or a politician, then surely it's not too much to expect a few contemporary descriptions of the worlds greatest magician.

You have to be carefull here, what is it exactly we are questioning? That Jesus never existed or that Jesus was never ressurected?



There is no reliable evidence for either.

and we have as yet given no reason why the entire collection of NT evidence should be deemed invalid)

The entire New Testament can indeed be deemed to be invalid for the above reasons. ie no contemporary writings.

In addition to this the creed relayed in Corinthians shows that belif in the reasurrection was in circlation within 5 years of Jesus's death.

No it was'nt.

A collection of writings written decadesafter the event makes this claim.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 10 (view)
The God Who Wasn't There
Posted: 6/1/2008 3:30:01 AM

'Can there be any doubt that a historical jesus didnt exist?'

Indeed there can,

Firstly we must consider that the New Testament us not uniform but a collection of 27 documents written in the period 40 to 150c.e,

There is a lot of good evidence to support this, but-

His first biography(s?) are written after a remarkably short time 30-40 years by contrast the next most influential figure of antiquity Alexander the great had to wait four hundred years for Arrian and Plutarch to produce his biography.

Firstly, we are talking about "biographies" that had zero factual input.

Secondly, Alexander the Great lived more than 300 years before Christ, and, there is contemporary evidence that Alexander lived, [archeological from the palace of Persepolis for instance]. More importantly, his conquests left dynasties in his wake. The dynasty of Ptolemy, for instance, continued to rule Egypt up to the time of Cleopatra.

For Jesus, on the other hand, there is no conclusive evidence to back the literal interpretation of the Bible. For instance, the story that after the crucifixion the dead rose up and walked through the streets of Jerusalem (Matthew 27:53) is backed up by no external commentator.

Paul does indeed atest to the existance of jesus, but the key point here is that he is not particularly interested in the events of his life! For Paul it is Jesus's death on the cross that is of importance.

What a great example of human,subjective, interpretation!

The problems people have therfore in accepting the existence of the historical person Jesus is the meaning that goes with it.



It's the lack of any evidence actually.

To be fair i include myself in this bracket.

An honest statement. But your argument still flounders.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 4 (view)
Every man, at the last hour of hopelessness and desperation, atheist or not...
Posted: 6/1/2008 2:13:40 AM

Perhaps I should say that his instinct is to pray, but many may override instinct with pride.

I would suggest our first instinct is to crap our pants.

I have faced death [had a loaded shotgun pointed at me at close range by a drunken burgler] and I can assure you, the first instinct [after shitting oneself] is survival.

Also had conversations with WW2 veterans, some religious, some not, and from what I've learned, a staunch atheist does notchange their beliefs when they are about to "meet their maker".
Joined: 12/29/2007
Msg: 3 (view)
The creator is....
Posted: 5/30/2008 7:19:37 AM

An alien or collective of aliens?

No, because the alien/s in turn would need a creator.

An intelligent, loving, cosmic consciousness?


An infinite being whos self examination has created equally infinite realities?

Double Ditto

Something that the human mind in its current state of evolution cannot comprehend?

Quite possibly. From this standpoint, agnosticism would seem to be the logical option.
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