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 Author Thread: If you make her cum orally shouldn't she return the favor?
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 57 (view)
 
If you make her cum orally shouldn't she return the favor?
Posted: 10/17/2008 9:46:41 AM
"A woman is not obligated to do a damn thing she doesn't want to do in any situation. "

^^^ Neither is a man. If he's tired of always giving and not getting much in return he is free to do as he wants. If he feels she is being selfish- and has voiced his concern to her with no positive change or dicussion- he can either keep doing what he's doing, stay with her but not continue to do things if her lack of reciprocity makes him resent it, or he can call the whole thing off and look for someone more interested/willing to have a more mutual exchange. Giving and getting nothing back is no better than giving with an agenda and expectations attached. One is being selfish, the other is being used. There is no real positive side to either scenario that I can see. There is a big difference between tit-for-tat scorekeeping, and feeling that the general balance of a relationship, or an aspect of a relationship, is out of balance.

Don't know the specifics, is he going out of his way to please her and she can't be bothered? Then SHE is the selfish one. Is he going down on her just to "earn points" for what he should get in return? Then yes, he's the selfish one. Is she doing other things that 'work" for him and he's all bent out of shape over one item... or is she expecting him to pleasure her and not seeing any need to reciprocate and feeling, as some posters here seem to, that he should just be happy she is showing up for the event at all? Perhaps sexually they just aren't very compatible? Perhaps they just can't communicate? Perhaps this is just a reflection of another trouble elsewhere in the relationship?

Sounds like they should talk about it.

I hope I'm wrong, but this thread and others give me the impression that a lot of double standards still exist; a lot of women are clueless about male sexuality; a lot of women think if a guy comes it means he is always "satisifed"; a lot of women still like to control using sex, and act like it's a one-way street; a lot of women are selfish lovers (and the most selfish ones are probably the first to project their own selfishness unto men); and a lot of women hold the guys responsible both for their pleasure/satisfaction, and his own. And let's not even try to deal with the "he should just be happy he's getting any" argument. I don't see anyone telling women they should be thrilled just to be getting mediocre sex.

This is NOT to say there aren't plenty of men with equivalent attitudes, nor to suggest all women are selfish/controlling/ignorant. It's just to point out -using as an example the fact that most posters immediatley jumped on the OP without regard for the fact that there are 50/50 odds he's not the selfish one in this scenario (granted, his choice of wording may not have been the best if what he was trying say is that he is freely giving and just doesn't feel she's making any effort or giving any regard in return ) - that men with the equivalent selfish/ignorant/sexist attitudes are nearly universally bashed (and rightly so!), usually by both men and women; while the women who feel/act this way seem to feel a sense of "rightness" and entitlement- and quite a few men seem to back them up. Ignorance and selfishness are not gender-specific attributes. But there sometimes seems to be a filter, or an offset centering point, that allows selfshness on one side to be socially accepted as "fairness", while fairness on the other side is viewed as "selfish". When men are viewing women as superior beings whose affections must be earned through constant tribute, or as fragile creatures that must always be coddled.... and women are viewing men as evil sh&ts who should be happy for whatever they get, or elevating themselves above men and demanding special treatment based on their gender... nobody wins and everybody loses. Genuine respect cannot coexist with spite, vegeance, superiority/inferiority complexes, double standards, power trips, etc.

When it comes to the topic at hand, personally I'm only interested if it's on equal terms, done freely and enthusiastically, with mutual respect and consideration and a genuine mutual desire to please one's partner. Anything else is just window-dressing.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 70 (view)
 
Who likes coffee for a frist date??
Posted: 8/28/2008 1:51:58 PM
My experience is that there is a directly inverse relationship between the amount of expectations, limitations, and requirements one places on dating and date behavior, and the "realness" and authenticity of their own person.

By extension, I find the "realness" of one's intentions and aspirations for a relationship to also inversely correlate with their requirements to be financially compensated, need for "control" (as in "he'd better do X, or else he gets the boot"), or need to be "entertained". Anyone geniunely seeking and capable of a genuine relationship will have a grounded, authentic approach to the situation as it develops... not a laundry list of behavioral requirements and a set script of events that must be strictly adhered to.

I think it' s also funny that there is so much resistance to the "coffee" or "drink" type of first meeting because there is an ssumption that it has a short time limit. I can only speak for myself, but I've had "coffee" start at 8pm and end at 2am ... and only then because we were getting looks from the staff at the counter who were just waiting for us before they hit the lights. And if you don't like coffee, suggest something else- the point is it's simple, low key, easy to talk, and "natural"... so hopefully everyone's comfortable, at ease, and being their genuine self rather than posturing, being on their "best behavior", and consciuously striving to "impress" or follow any particualr set of rules.

Also gotta love the concerns about "players" and statements to effect of "should be willing to invest some time/$/whatever", when wining and dining is probably the 2nd oldest page from the seducer's playbook.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 25 (view)
 
Damned if you do - Damned if don't
Posted: 8/28/2008 10:28:25 AM
"I don't really condone marriage and I don't seek LTRs either"

Oh, nevermind then.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 24 (view)
 
Damned if you do - Damned if don't
Posted: 8/28/2008 10:22:30 AM
"UGH - what women have you been dating? No - GOD no, I dont want to know any of that...call your mother."

"My sheild goes up cause I don't want to have emotional touchy feely discussions.."

"Yeah, wrong again. Call your mother."

"And don't cry around me either. *shudder* "

^^Oh I don't know, that sounds like a great relationship model to me.

After all, a couple should -never- have any emotional touchy feely disussions. Best to keep emotions completely out of it. OR if they happen, try to push them under the rug ASAP.

Obviously a lot of people have issues with being open and honest. And it seems a lot of women also have problems with men who are actually human. Men are supposed to just be work animals who are ready to go at it 24/7- that's all they care about and are good for, right? Chalk them up to the equivalent of the guys who think all women are 50c whores and move on...
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 2 (view)
 
What is the protocol for dating today?
Posted: 8/15/2008 7:19:46 AM
I'm always amazed that people just can't come out and talk about it.

Do you want to get together again? Are you really interested? Where might you see this going? What are you looking for?

Is it really that scary to talk about?

And if they freak... chances are, they just saved you a lot of trouble later anyway! Granted, you have to use a little judegement. Asking "how are you looking at this?" or "how do you want this to work?" after 1 date might be a bit much. As a general open-ended question after 2 or 3 dates, it's pretty reasonable- provided your expectations are reasonable as well.

Of course, you also have to keep in mind that especially in the early stages, they may not know, may dodge, or may sugarcoat. So just pay attention to tone, body language, etc. If they give the answers you were hoping for, and seem open, relaxed, and sincere then you just have to kind of assume they are. Which, if they are truly relaxed and open to having the discussion, is probably the case. But don't put the blinders on, just in case... truly knowing and understanding someone, and the trust that goes along with it, takes time to develop.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 8 (view)
 
Are common interests important or not?
Posted: 8/5/2008 7:26:29 AM
I think it depends on the person.

Personally I get bored fast if we can't be activity partners and talk about common interests and do fun stuff together. I think being friends, sharing activities, etc. is what fills out a relationship- makes you really want to spend time and share things together beyond just the sexual and the functional/practical. Otherwise, it seems like it's either just based on the physical, or is an emotional house of cards that crumbles as soon as it comes under fire.

But some people might do perfectly well if they have great communication, common values, and mutual support, talking about each other's interests/activties but not neccesarily sharing them.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 27 (view)
 
no sexual advances
Posted: 8/1/2008 8:32:22 AM
Could just be he feels it's implied that he's attracted, otherwise wouldn't be there?

Doesn't want to seem like just another horny guy?

Is afraid if he brings it up you might be offended?

Could be he just isn't much interested in sex or isn't all that attracted. But more likely, I'd say there's a good chance he either a.) doesn't feel it's "safe" yet to be sexual with you or b.) is just more focused on the "getting to know" and doesn't want to get physically involved until he feels he wants to be emotionally involved - or is already taking you seriously and therefore wants to take it slow (either to avoid pushing you, or to avoid letting himself get too attached too quickly).
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 22 (view)
 
no sexual advances
Posted: 7/31/2008 11:32:54 AM
Maybe he just takes it slow?

Maybe he doesn't separate the physical from the emotional?

Maybe he's worried about "pushing" you because of what pop culture/society tells him? Maybe it's just been his expereince that women prefer to wait in that area?

And if you want something to happen... why don't you a.) talk about it or b.) up the ante yourself?

Is it a challenge because you don't know how to deal when you aren't the one in total control of when and how the physical happens?

Does it make you worry that he's just not attracted?

I had this happen to me once. She said right from the beginning she needed to go slow, was getting over a bad breakup, etc. Then was all bent out of shape after the 3rd date because I ("still") hadn't tried to get past 2nd yet. Apparently just needed the ego boost and felt "unattractive" to me because I could actually excercise a bit of self restraint.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 10 (view)
 
If a guy has alot of activitys they enjoy does that?
Posted: 7/21/2008 11:23:12 AM
So we should instead be seeking boring people who don't do much, and therefore won't be able to do much with us, and wont' have much to talk about?



It's funny really... women complain about men treating them as sex objects, yet when we want more than that, when we want women who can also be friends and activity partners, that's bad too? I don't know, is there really that much love or closeness two people can share when they don't do anything together and having nothing to talk about and are basically bored with each other? And do women not look for guys who are into the things they are into?
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 74 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:59:47 AM
Well, my anecdotal experience is, that in actuality, only two of the women I've ever dated even said a word about anything but splitting it. Of those two, only one thought it was a big deal. And neither declined a second date as a result of my preference not to pay their way.

So frankly I have to wonder what kind of women these are who say otherwise or who would base an entire relationship on such a petty issue. Or maybe iIve just been lucky? Or maybe it's just that the women I tend to be attracted to enough to even get to a "date" are more fair and progressive than most? Regardless, I'll keep dating good partner material in 2008... no 1908 customs or women for me.

As for dating to impress... I'd rather date women who are looking for a quality partner, not an impressive bankroll/social status/knowledge of the "rules"/etc. Likewise, I will be impressed by things like intelligence, common sense, stability/security, confidence, common interests and attitudes, etc... not her jewelry or her expensive fashion style or her impressive social calendar. Keep it real.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 72 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:17:47 AM
"in the dark as to what women want... "

Much is said of this... but how many women even have a clue what men actually want? Hint, it's not always just about sex. Shocking, I know.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 71 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:16:38 AM
"If someone B*tched to me in public about paying or splitting a bill -"

I'm not saying that. I'm just saying if the bill came and she couldn't talk about it or refused to open her wallet, while I'd pay it and there'd be no "scene", there'd have to be some pretty good reasons why I'd consider the possibility of date #2. I want a woman, not a girl... the expectation of being provided for and the inability to communicate about something so excruciatingly simple as a restaurant bill are not behavior I associate with a mature, capable woman of the type that I'd seriously consider as a partner. Surely most women wouldn't stay long with a man who talked the talk but couldn't walk the walk... same thing. Just as you women would immediately drop a man who expected you to pay his way because he's "cheap", some of us men see you wanting to set the precedent in such a way and have to figure that this is just the beginning of what you'd "expect" from us.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 70 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/17/2008 7:36:47 AM
"magic and mystery of romance"

Perhaps some of us just don't view it as being nearly so mysterious as others make it out to be. Just saying.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 65 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:02:36 PM
"even an 'earthy' type will bite your head off."

Only if she were offended because it hit a little to close to the mark. I'd certainly not consider that material to impress a date with, but believe it or not there are women who can appreciate the nugget of truth in that and not be offended one bit.

Of course, the fact that you repeatedly reference Guiness as if implying women don't drink beer is perhaps revealing of you dating your attitudes a bit as well. I know PLENTY of great women who drink beer... including Guinness. Too funny. In fact meeting for a few drinks or a casual dinner is a pretty common first meeting... I don't find that in my age group dating is made out to be this grandiose display of codified gestures... it's just two people who feel some interest/attraction getting together to learn more. Nothing more, nothing less. Why should it be so complicated? The less secure, more traditional, or more materialistic women make a big deal ofwho pays... the progressive, secure, or fair ones don't expect to be given a free pass. Likewise, the ones who are "relationship material" tell it like it is (good clean communication only gets more and more important as things progress), the ones who aren't play games with unspoken rules. It's that simple. Guess which ones get a second date?!

Hunter- again I totally respect that viewpoint, other than when it becomes an "obligation" upon which final judegment is passed. When men judge women by a similar set of rules they are nearly universally called "pigs".

Re: personal boundaries... well, some men also think they're worth enough that they shouldn't have to compensate a woman for spending time with him. Again, it works both ways. The difference is, one is based in fairness and the other is based on entitlement.

All I'm saying is that a lot of women realize that the world has changed, mostly for the better, but realize they can't try to have it both ways and expect to be taken seriously. And likewise, a lot of men have wised up to women who do try to have it both ways. So in the end, a woman who bases an entire relationship's future on such petty matters is probably chasing away a lot of great men. Ironic too that some of the men who would probably most genuinely respect her are the ones who would get filtered by this standard. Not that that the men are missing out on much if that is really her attitude! But a woman who would ditch a guy based on this when all else looks promising is no better than a man who dates based solely on bust measurements or ditches women who don't "put out".

Sure we've all got wants and needs... but there comes a point where both parties must say "it's not just about me".
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 63 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 6:15:03 PM
You just made me vomit, PP!

I have a whole new appreciation for why we see this so differently.

Nope, I'll stay here in the real world and base my relationships on reality, not romantic fantasy. The type of interaction you describe is not at all what I'm looking for. Much more into the earthy types where open discussion and clear communication is the rule, and romance is based on mutual genuine appreciation of one another's personal qualities rather than "scoring points," making grandiosie gestures, or following scripted moves in hopes of achieving stock responses. Let's just be who we are and not hold one another to these rigid roles!

But just to be sure, if on a first date my portion of the bill were greater than hers I'd certainly make sure I paid ALL of my share. Yes, even I have some relic of chivalry left in me I guess! THAT is the kind of gesture that would let a progressive, earthy woman know that I am fair, generous and considerate... attention to detail and a strong sense of fairness. NOT the sense that I am obligated to pay for her fragile self's way, or the sense that I must "earn" the "privilege" of spending time with her through such means. Of course, after the first date I'd hope nobody paid much mind as to who paid which time or whether one's dinner cost more than the other as long as the general idea were equitable. Of course, in the event I were in better shape financially, as things progressed I'd not mind throwing a little extra her way at times. But that should generally be a situational thing or a "gesture" since I'm not looking to be anybody's sugar daddy... a significant difference in ambition and/or income would likely lead to an imbalance of power in the relationship down the road anyhow.

This whole discussion reminds me of the old joke: Man says Would you have sex with me for $1m? Woman says"Sure" . How about for $1.00? "Hell no, what kind of girl do you think I am?" Well, we already established that... now we're just negotiating the price!
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 62 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 5:08:38 PM
WOW.... yet again she boggles the mind:

"Yikes this could become complicated ...."

Not for those with a command of higher math.

Total bill = 47.00. 20% tip = 9.40. Total -56.40. Half= 28.20. Gee, THAT took about 30 seconds.

I may have just gained a new insight into why some women have an issue with this subject!



 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 61 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 5:02:46 PM
"You offer to pay, then pay, then dump him because he took you at your word"

That's another thing I can't stand. Mean what you say, and say what you mean. We all know what ASSUME means. Why play that game?
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 60 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 5:01:28 PM
"With PP's "offer, pay, and drop 'em," philosophy, there isn't time to see what's "cheap" and what's respectful"

Ace- that's what I'm sayin. It's kind of like throwing the baby out with the bathwater before you even know if there's bathwater.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 57 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 4:41:08 PM
Yes, I'm sure both my wallet and hers will be opened... it's really no biggie! Unless of course, you make it so.

Being respected by your date goes a loooong way!

"Where's the romance in your approach?"

Where's the romance in subsidizing my date, or for that matter knowing that she judges my character or intentions based on such meaningless gestures? Please. If I wanted to pay for a woman's company I could hire a hooker. Personally I find a date with an interesting, articulate, confident woman who is open to the possibility of a relationship that goes beyond "romance" or sex far more rewarding though.

ANd with that mentality, is it any wonder women fall for the old player's tricks of wining and dining to get what he wants, then booking out? Again, base the conclusions on meaningful ineraction (or a lack thereof), not material symbolisms. Any a$$hat can spend money to "get you"... if you let him.

To those who men who go by the old-school gentleman approach... it's all good. I just steer clear of the women who think that is the ONLY way or who want their cake and eat it too. Again, just because a man would prefer his relationships to start off on an equal footing rather than posturing and gestures does not mean he does not have principles by which he lives or that he is not generous or not romantic. Paying is not necessarily posturing or gesturing if doe out of genuine respectful generosity... but REQUIRING that someone else do so is!
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 54 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 4:12:25 PM
"I had no idea that some men ruminated and cogitated in such length over such a relatively paltry sum"

We don't... we assume that if you're interested enough to meet us, you're interested enough to risk maybe forking over a few dollars for the chance to get to know us. And we assume that you don't mind or feel it's unfair to pay your own way. Just like we do. Paying one's own way also means they can as much of whatever they want and nobody feels guilty OR put upon! That being said- even if her portion of the bill is greater, I will always still split it down the middle. Worrying about a few dollars is silly, what matters to me is just the principal behind it. And the fact that some women DO worry about a few dollars, in whatever means they rationalize it or attach questionable meanings to it, is the only thing I find puzzling. How bout worrying about the important things, like am I considerate, do I actually listen, do I show genuine interest- as means of gauging my intentions or suitability? I'm certainly not basing the future of the relationship on similarly silly, meaningless ephemera such as how much cleavage she is showing.

"The fact that you seem to view this as 'dirty work' is rather worrying!"

Why does what I think worry you? Just because you're a woman who refuses to take responsibility for your part of the date relationship, I couldn't care less what you think.

" It seems it would be your intention that the woman should pay the whole date anyway which would hardly work! "

Wow, again totally illogical abstraction. No, this is not at all what I said or implied.

"Are men that feeble in your opinion? "

No, but I'd not want to date or be in a rleationship with those types of women who do seem to be...
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 49 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 3:03:29 PM
"I feel that too many women worked too hard to establish their equality, and that too many men endured too much abuse before seeing the light in that regard to hold with a custom that celebrates the dependent status of women. "

Well put. It can also be viewed from the standpoint of devaluing men. Either way it seems to serve little purpose to anyone who is not seeking to be "in control" in one manner or the other. And it sets both men and women back about 50 years. Generosity is great. The EXPECTATION or demand of generosity, not so much.

Much is said of men who always pay having "class"... to me, having class is not automatically expecting others to take care of your own needs or berating them when they don't... but having gratitude when they do.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 46 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 2:41:38 PM
"Nothing is for free. I am just saying that this isn't necessarily about cash. Some things are far more subtle. This has nothing to do with a 'free ride' when a heart is on the line and some men can see the importance of that in the long term of a relationship."

Apparently some women can't see it either... since they are more often the ones basing an entire relationship on the price of dinner. You say a heart is on the line, but you base an entire relationship on material things... or perhaps it's insecurity that requires others to do the dirty work or take on the risks. OR perhaps it's just that generation thing... certainly times have changed, and just as women are not limited or confined as they once were, men do not necessarily feel the obligation to be sole providers/protectors/caretakers of their women. Most men my age seem to seek a true partnership on all levels... mental, emotional, practical, physical... rather than the traditional model where those aspects of the relationship are segregated into male and female "roles". And most women my age also seem to want this. The trouble comes when old rules are applied to a new game.

"there are no rules"

Again, perfect irony... you apply rules to dating/relationships then claim there are none, while you disagree with those who are advocating open-mindedness or fairness or the ditching of antiquated "rules" from another era. Surely you don't think most men today are looking to support a stay-home housewife? Because "the man pays" is based on that same mentality. We may be animals, but some of us like to think we've evolved to the point where relationships can occur and be experienced on a deeper level than is found among the birds or other primates. I don't see too many women saying they'd love to be "barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen", and I don't see too many men saying that's what they want of their women. But to each their own, I suppose.

All in all of course it comes down to individuals, and as I said the "will he pay for me?" test does actually have intrinsic value... it keeps progressive men and traditionalist women (or non-materialistic men and superficial women, as the cases may be) from getting too involved with each other.

"All I am saying is that the woman has more of the choice"

Only if the man gives it to her. If he doesn't make that initial offer or make the first move, the footing is equal. Again, this is really just all posturing in the name of making sure women don't lose the upper hand. Which is sad if having the upper hand in a relationship is that important to them.

"You are making an issue out of something which is a free choice."

I'm not making an issue of anything, other than the silliness of demanding that someone pay for you before you'd consider seeing them again.

" It's too bad if you lose dating potential "

I'm glad you feel better about yourself by trying to put down those who don't agree with your views.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 44 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 1:31:04 PM
"a guy must pay to play"

Actually Ace said "when a woman insists a man must pay to play". You are the one saying if a man doesn't pay you have no use for another date with him. Nice projection though.



"But I have met men with wit, good appearance and a listening ear! (and they pay)"

Good for them... I never said a man doesn't have the right to pay if he wants (although too many men like that does result in a princess/entitlement mentality).

"Unlike you I don't believe in 50/50 equality"

And I don't believe in being either master or servant. I'd much prefer a partnership with someone who will contribute equally to the relationship.


"and wouldn't dream of popping out for a pint of Guinness ... for a date."

Too cheap for you?


"But if you find yourself struggling to find a date"

Nope... and most of them have learned they don't always get a free ride in life.

" maybe you should ask the girls what they want. "

I do. If they want to treated like princesses or children I throw them back, if they want to be in a mutually fulfilling, balanced relationship, then we'll see where everything goes. Likewise, most of them ask me what I want. They realize it's not just about them. And if they think it is....back they go.


"By a woman paying her half, or for him, she is automatically taking control of where the date is going, what they are doing. The man is put into a submissive position where he accepts and runs along beside. "

Is the same not also true? Submission, servitide, or infantilization are not gender-specific or gender-exclusive.

"He is emasculated and deep down resents it ... all for the sake of the woman saying 'I can do this - I will take over.' That is why a lot of women don't do it - except when they think that the relationship is doomed and he has therefore lost his masculine attraction to her as a lover."

Yes, obviously most men deep down want to protect and provide for their fragile helpless woman... please. I would not resent it, I always think it's nice to meet a woman who is independent, fair, mature, self-actualizing, not superficial, and who can communicate clearly in a mature manner rather than relying on "signals" and "tests" and secret codes.

"Chivelry isn't dead, but that doesn't entitle anyone to take advantage of it. Dating is difficult enough for all of us, both emotionally and financially. "

This is a good point by Taken. There is a fine line between an occasional small gesture (liek holding a door or buying adrink), and an entitlement issue (like buying dinner on the first date as prerequisite for any future interactions). Likewise, many women don't want to be seen as anything less than mature, cpaable, and self-sufficient, and many men no longer want the type of bond that results from "buying" a woman's affection or otherwise performing grandiose mating dances simply to be in the good graces of a woman who values "what" he is instead of "who" he is.

"Romance is not dead - "

Certainly not. It's just not as financially based as it once was. This is a GOOD thing! It helps to allow a relationship to be built on what really matters at deeper levels, instead of shallow wants or desperate needs. Personally I think putting a price tag on love or making a date or a relationship into a financial transaction is about as UN-romantic as it gets!
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 40 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:58:37 AM
"I am being generous with my time, my ear, my appearance and my wit"

That's unfortunate that you don't seem to meet more men who do the same!

Still think it's funny how some women will say "it's just a couple bucks, what's the big deal?" when -they- are the ones who make the big deal of it. It's not about the money, it's about being judged on one's "generosity" by those who will only be generous -in return- (which in relaity is simply being "fair", not "generous"), or affix a $ tag to a relationship. I see what the women who believe in "pay to play" are saying... but there is no reason in today's world why men couldn't say the same... "why should I see her again if she won't reaffirm her interest?", "why should I see her if she's too cheap to pay for me?", "why should I get involved with a woman who doesn't show that she can "take care of me"?

The whole thing seems pretty silly to me.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 39 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:22:56 AM
"Paying is a sign they are willing to take the responsibility of looking after you"

I'll take a woman who takes responsibility for herself, thanks. I certainly don't expect her to take responsibility for me. We are adults looking for an equal partnership with another adult, not looking to be a surrogate father. All of the explanations I ever see for why "he should pay" boil down to mental gymnastics in an attempt to deflect attention from the hypocrisy of being "equal" and yet expecting others to take responsibility for them, being "strong and independent" yet insisting the other party take on all the risks and make all the first moves.

Again... if one is still used to the "traditional" ideology and it works, run with it... at one time there were reasons things worked the way they did. But for those of us who never were exposed to that "traditional" model or the reasons for its existence, it seems rather one-sided and hypocritical and seems to serve to perpetuate negative stereotyping of women.

Not that I'm worried... this test works both ways and is a good way to weed out the ones who can't seem to decide if its 2008 or 1908.... so it actually has a built in advantage for guys as well. If you don't want to live by that model, it's an easy way to find out early on that she does.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 38 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:05:41 AM
"This is not a test of wealth, but an indication of generosity and attitude. "
That is a two-way street
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 35 (view)
 
Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/15/2008 11:24:40 AM
"I think a man should expect to pay for the date fully if he expects to be taken seriously. I always go prepared to pay my half, but if this relatively paltry sum of money is going to be a cause of contention on the first date, then that alone would turn me off as the guy being a penny-pinching cheapskate. "

Dare I point out the irony in the fact that considering any guy who doesn't feel he should pay your way a "penny-pinching cheapskate" - is in fact making a point of contention of that very same "paltry sum of money"?

It's good to see in this thread that at least most of the younger females seem to be ok with paying their own way and seeing a date as a mutual opportunity to get to know one another and (hopefully) enjoy each other's company. It seems that there is a pretty direct correlation in age brackets for both men and women as to how they feel about this... and that's fine, if it's what you're used and it works for you run with it! But for a 20-30 something female to talk the talk but not walk the walk when it comes to things being "equal" is reason enough for me to say "thanks but no thanks"- peopel can't have it both ways. Generally both parties are "on their best behavior" during an initial meeting, so what does it say when someone is already looking for you to set the tone in such a way? When from day one you must "compensate" her for bothering with you? We are supposed to be considering a relationship (hopefully based on mutual appreciation and respect)... I'm not applying for the position of walking ATM any more than she is applying for the position of cook or maid.

 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 28 (view)
 
Why do nice girls finish last???
Posted: 11/7/2006 6:15:53 PM
"Nice
Balanced <--- here's where you want to be. Not too nice, not a jerk. Happily in between.
Jerk"


Pretty much. In some cases these "nice guy" or "nice girl" labels are hiding issues- insecurity, boredom, etc.

In other cases, I'd say it's just an outlet for frustrations about how few balanced people are really out there...
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 91 (view)
 
Why are guys attracted to confident women?????
Posted: 11/7/2006 6:02:47 PM
Some guys like to have the "little lady" who always has to lean on him for support with her insecurities.

The rest of us don't want to constantly be shoring up someone else's sense of self-esteem or having to be her surrogate dad. How can you have a partnership of equals when one "partner" is always in need of something from the other?

Don't get me wrong- I like to feel protective of her in a certain sense, and she doesn't have to always be 100% confident about everything (be honest... anyone who says or acts like they are always confident- about everything- is either putting on an act, is arroagnt and self-righteous... or is arrogant and self-righteous in an attempt to cover up the fact that the very core of their being is totally riddled with insecurities). But I also couldn't be with her if I always felt like she'd just fall apart if I wasn't there.

Simplified- I guess it's the same reasons women want "men" and don't want "boys".
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 8 (view)
 
Why I love men...
Posted: 8/10/2006 9:25:48 AM
I don't think it's that we understand the emotional madness... it's that we understand that it IS emotional madness... and if we're good, and if you stop and listen to us for a just a minute...you'll understand that too.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 44 (view)
 
Spray me, degrade me?
Posted: 7/27/2006 12:28:50 PM
TO each their own, no one should have to do something thay don't want. BUT I'm assuming then that any woman who finds semen nasty or degrading would a) not expect her guy to go down on her, and b) not want that "nasty degrading stuff" anyplace else either...

Perhaps another way to look at is, if a woman finds it that off-putting... that probably means she either doesn't really like sex much, doesn't like men much, or doesn't like that particular guy much. Or some combination thereof.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 89 (view)
 
Why do strong women scare men so?
Posted: 7/17/2006 1:21:53 PM
"Don't worry, women are still in control wether a man is "in charge" or not.
Thats a secret most men won't tell you. "

Oh please....

Not all men are whipped or desperate enough anymore for that old trick to work. Feminism has opened a lot of men's eyes as well...
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 87 (view)
 
Why do strong women scare men so?
Posted: 7/17/2006 1:16:30 PM
This is just an excuse used to protect the egos of women who don't know the difference between being a strong and independent nice decent pleasant person, and being a self-absorbed obnoxious cranky controlling b*tch.

Not too hard to figure this one out, but too painful for some to face...

The fact that you are strong, smart, independent, successful, etc. does not mean THOSE are the reasons men run when they see you coming a mile away...

On a deepr level, a lot of these "strong and independent" types either have huge chips on their shoulder, are terribly insecure, or have just been reading too much Betty Friedan...
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 87 (view)
 
Defending Men
Posted: 7/14/2006 12:17:43 PM
I don't need women to defend me.

But I won't stop them if they honestly want to either. It's nice to see that there are a few women who still appreciate the male gender and/or masculinity.

Thanks, Suddenly...



And know that any woman who speaks out against the male-bashing around her is all good in my book.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 82 (view)
 
Defending Men
Posted: 7/14/2006 10:04:31 AM
Dime- Dontcha love it when you treat equal as "equal" and they call it misogyny!?

Indeed I think equal is equal... but that means holding women to the same standards, no more giving women a "pass", treating them "special" and putting them on pedestals and elevating them to a goddess-like status in one case and then treating them like helpless children who can't or don't know how to do better in another. No mre cutting the pattern to fit the cloth- no more letting women change their answers to fit individual cases, or letting them have all the rights but not holding them to any of the responsibilities. No more blame shifting- if your life is f'ed up, don't act like men are to blame because they didn't ride up on their white horse and save the day every time for your sorry a$$. No more letting women walk all over men while the men treat women like precious jewels. "You've come a long way baby"- so act like it, grow up, and live up to what you say!

I love women, provided they are women who stand on their own merit, live by their words, and hold themselves accountable for themselves and their life (or in short, I hold women to the same standard as men; blasphemy,I know!). Blaming men for their shortcomings, failures, and dissapointments, however, is not a good means of achieving that end. Too many seem to take the easy out of saying they are blameless and the whole world is f'ed up because of men. And of course when people are saying left and right "women great, men bad" it must be hard to resist the offer to jump on that ego-boosting and personal responsibility-avoiding bandwagon...
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 81 (view)
 
Defending Men
Posted: 7/14/2006 8:56:46 AM
Part of the problem is it is socially acceptable and PC to say whatever one wants against men, but when women are the target it becomes sexist, patriarchal, hateful, and generally about as socially acceptable as saying the F-word at a bible camp.

Between the general social pressure, the fact that it is "unmanly" for a man to complain about much of anything, and the fact that most women will shun men who don't "follow the (their) rules and play nicely"- it puts men in a position where to do anything but "go with the flow" can have significant social and personal costs. So women can say the meanest most spiteful things about men in the most generalizing way, and few if any will call them out on their bad behavior- whereas a man calling a woman out for demonizing men would be considered "bad behavior".

Sooner or later it'll change though- if the women are smart (which we know they are- they couldn't have engineered the "best of both worlds" {"strong independent and capable, yet helpless and victimized"} position they currently hold if they weren't!) they'll start making the changes- rejecting feminsim and misandry (as some are already doing) in favor of gender equality- before the pent-up anger level amongst men as a whole reaches the tipping point, and the position of women has been completely undermined by their own behaviors. Otherwise the battle of the sexes will be on again- and unlike in the past, this time the men will actually show up for the fight.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 68 (view)
 
Nice guy Syndrome....
Posted: 7/13/2006 1:48:27 PM
What BCdream says has so e truth to it... but a flip side, as also suggested earlier, is that the older women go for the nice guys to either pick up the pieces or because they've lost the physical attributes that allowed them to fool around with whatever guys they wanted when they were younger. Some women grow up and become great catches for the true "nice guys"... others made a mess of their life and are lonely and desperate and need a "nice guy" who will come and make it all better.

I still stand by what I said previously... I think it comes down to some combination of, the average woman is not looking for the true "nice guys" and the true "nice guys" aren't looking for the average woman (I'm sure the reverse is also true, BTW). And the weak whiny "nice guys" need to get themselves together (as do the weak whiny women who complain about getting "used" over and over again by "evil men" but never seem to consider that they keep letting it happen).
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 66 (view)
 
Nice guy Syndrome....
Posted: 7/13/2006 10:47:00 AM
Redclover, what you describe is not a "nice guy"... it's an a$$hole that uses the "nice" routine just long enough to get a piece from insecure needy women. Perhaps some of the "nice guys that need to get their Sh!t together" do this. Real nice guys wouldn't.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 65 (view)
 
Nice guy Syndrome....
Posted: 7/13/2006 10:43:31 AM
"no offense but grow a sack guys

Or that and then we can rip them off like paper towels! "

Or how about we rip off some pieces of YOUR anatomy! Wouldn't that be a laugh!

(yeah, you're not really as funny as you thought your were, are you?!)
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 50 (view)
 
Defending Men
Posted: 7/12/2006 10:24:01 AM
Very positive to see women...gosh... saying something POSITIVE about men!
Is there something in the water? We men just aren't used to this... as you can see by the fact that soem are suspicioous that there isn't a trick here somewhere...

I wish more women didn't put THEMSELVES on pedestals and act like all men are ignorant brainless lazy sex-crazed sado-masochistic psychos. Women as a gender are hardly the perfect beings that some of them like to think they are!

As for the toilet seat, yeah, they build 'em with hinges so that any damn fool can raise or lower it to suit the situation...
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 48 (view)
 
Nice guy Syndrome....
Posted: 7/12/2006 10:09:55 AM
"Women biologically are attracted to the alpha male, the alpha male is the one who is IN CHARGE. the one with the BIGGEST BALLS. if you notice, all these women who want a nice guy are attracted to the biggest dirtbag losers (in your opnion) becuase those people live their life the way they want. they answer to NOBODY. they are the alpha male of their own life. when you are a nice guy your are saying that the women is the alpha male of you."

This is true. I think what frustrates a lot of "nice guys" is that they see these women who are going crazy over all these "alpha males of their own life' who to everyone else are just a$$hats with lives going nowhere fast. And then they see these women dump/divorce the low-life A$$hat and move on... to the next one!

Whereas a lot of "nice guys" know that to get somewhere in life, you often have to do the $hitwork first, or have to play by others rules at times, and that there is value in a balance of brains and balls (too much of either without any balance of the other can be problematic). But to many women this doesn't seem very "alpha" or "exciting"- they want the guy who's "already there" (or at least has deluded himself into thinking that... and acts that way whether or not there's any truth to it), not the guy who's "a work in progress". There's also a class of females who's lives are going nowhere fast or are insecure, and therefore need the thrills and excitement- thrills and excietment that a "quiet", intellectual, hard-worker type just isn't likely to provide. Some like their sanity, others have already lost it so crave the soap opera drama...

For some nice guys, it's that they've got big problems with being boring, insecure, etc. For other types of "nice guys", it's that they're going soemwhere in life but aren't there yet and aren't afraid to admit that; or who just aren't the rebllious or thrill-seeker type. But they see lots of women who go for the guys who put on the act, provide the drama, and who think the "nice guys" are dull or "unmanly". In the first case, the nice guys need to get their $hit together! In the second case, they need to realize that the pickins of what they actually want in a woman are slim, and that the ones who go for the a$$hats aren't worth their while anyway... these guys should be complaining (and accepting) that a good woman is hard to find... not complaining that "unremarkable" women aren't into them.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 33 (view)
 
Gentlemen can be BORING!
Posted: 6/27/2006 1:53:54 PM
Hey I wasn't really coming down on her- just pointing out that the women who only spend time with guys who alwaya "know just what to do" are ofetn the same women who end up writing the "why are all guys such sleaze..." posts....sometimes the quality people are the ones that don't already know "just what to do" in evry situation- I think this hold true for both men and women. There is a big difference between an insecure doormat with self-esteem and confidence issues, and someone who functions on an emotional and psychological level that allows room for some doubts and questioning instead of saying "shoot first, ask questions later".
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 32 (view)
 
Gentlemen can be BORING!
Posted: 6/27/2006 1:11:41 PM
"that's being a five-year-old (Mommy can I?) and five-year-olds are not really attractive dating partners."

Funny thing is, I'd say the same about any woman who can't clearly communicate what she does or doesn't want. Heck I DO say that... often.

I agree that cosntantly asking permission is not ideal. BUt I'd also venture that it wouldn't kill women to be a little more straightforward and direct and really less on "subtle hints", "nonverbal vues" and "he should just know" types of thinking (this is in regards to pretty much everything- not just phsyical stuff- communication is part of maturity). I know that being persued and having a guy "just know" is romantic and all that... but there's also that "assuming makes an A$$ out of u and me" aspect. Especially early on, if you're at all serious I think talking is the only way. AFter a while, you can use the non-verbals more and more, once you know each other well enough to know what the non-verbals mean (OTOH you should still be talking about plenty of things too!).

My advice to 'redhead" would be, IF she likes the guy otherwise and wants to be "serious" in one degree or another, to start talking- tell the guy what you wnat, make the first moves, tell him how you feel and ask him how he feels, etc.- it may just be that some things need to be fleshed out and he needs to feel a bit "safer".
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 29 (view)
 
Gentlemen can be BORING!
Posted: 6/27/2006 12:17:40 PM
It should be pointed out that you (yes you, Fieryredhead) have been given the power to get this guy locked up or put on the sex offender registry whenever you want, just because you say so by our crackerjack legal system. So it's likley that he's a genuine nice guy who's not all that experienced but is aware enough and smart enough to be concerned about it. He just doesn't want to grab your ass and have you go running, especially if you're running to a phone to dial 911. His technique could use some improvement but he basically sounds like a nice guy who's horny yet respectful.

In other words, this is just another one of those "nice guys are boring" threads that reminds the rest of us just how bizzarre the human female mind can be...

"He actually cares if I want him to push my buttons and turn my knobs or not!- what is he some kinda psycho perv freak-boy?! Doesn't he know how to fool around? Is he insecure? OMFG what's wrong with this guy- doesn't he know he's supposed to just kiss me and grab my ass and feel me up and not ask me first? Doesn't he know that it's ok to do that- except for when I decide it isn't?! And that it's not ok for him to ask what I decide!!??? What a loser. And boring too... it's much mroe exciting when a guy's hand slips down my pants unexpectedly. But, like, as long as I was OK with him doing that, and he could tell even though I didn't tell him..."
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 17 (view)
 
what is it with women
Posted: 6/27/2006 10:50:29 AM
"Men want a virgin whore.."

I think most guys just want a woman who waited for the right guy to be a whore...

Just to play devlis advocate there is something to be said for women who are sexually healthy and not frigid, yet still don't do the bed-jumping thing either. You know, the type who only sleeps with you if there's more to it than the sex, but who also doesn't have major physical or psychological hangups... great sex with the right person seems like a win-win to me.

I don't think this is such an unreasonable balance to ask for...
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 27 (view)
 
Why do all men prefer brunettes?
Posted: 6/23/2006 6:13:51 AM
As long as she has hair and it's not gray and doesn't have that nasty "burned to a crisp" look from everything she's done to it.

@Scarla: 100% man here then
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 10 (view)
 
you assume shes interested
Posted: 6/22/2006 5:04:50 PM
"guess it's like the joke:
Q: "what's the difference between romantic pursuit and sexual harassment?"

A: "Whether the advance is welcome of not..." "

Yup. Must be nice...

Just like the girls who show off their t1ts in their profile, then say "why do all these PIGS email me making sexual comments?!" You reap what you sow, ladies.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 9 (view)
 
you assume shes interested
Posted: 6/22/2006 4:58:01 PM
"I have to agree with the OP...'most' men (i said most, not all, so shut up) have that problem. God forbid you should return a smile to them, they think wow, she must want me! Same on here, even if they email us to compliment on something in the forum they think that if you reply to them that you must want to meet them...again I said MOST so all the ones who've emailed me about the forums NO I don't think that lol"

The women hath spoken! Apparently actually DON"T want us guys to do most of the initiating/approaching/risk taking after all! Despite what they've told us in the past. That's great- from now on we'll leave it to the women to approach us! That way they can do the work and take the risks and have to wonder if WE want THEM! Sounds like a win-win.

Seriously girls, if the roles were reversed you'd suddenly see a paradigm shift in the way these "why do men always hit on me"/"why don't women want me" threads go.... "if you make your bed you have to lie in it" as the saying goes.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 115 (view)
 
How muscular do you like your guys?
Posted: 6/22/2006 11:29:01 AM
"redviking...you should not be making comments ABOUT MY PROFILE and a "few extra pounds" which is the TRUTH. "

What the???

I wasn't criticizing you're body at all... just pointing out the irony of "a few extra"-type girl complaining that a guy with a pretty typical build is not muscular enough or trim enough to be attractive. For the record I actually kind of like a "few extra pounds" on a woman(not TOO many, but a few- read my last post). I just think it's laughable when women either don't work out at all, or do have a few extra pounds themselves, and yet they will criticize a guy for having a bit of a gut or not being bulked up. Just seems ironic to me.

"YOUR profile claims an "average" body type...let's be honest...average for a BIG & TALL shop, because your picture makes you look at least 80 pounds overweight."

5'9, 190 is hardly 80 lbs overweight for a guy! I'll admit I've got both a little more muscle and a little more "extra" than some guys- that's why I say average, because I'm neither very slim, totally ripped, nor a "teddy bear"...I'm... yes, more or less average! It's not like your "average" guy is a 5'9, 145-lb distance-runner type! If it makes you feel better, I'll admit I'd like to convert about 10-15 pounds of "extra" to muscle... which again is pretty much typical! I also find it ironic that you complain about the OP not being muscular enough, then say I'm "overweight". You're not leaving very much middle ground there!!! Nice personal attack though.


I think you got overly defensive here because you took what I said as an attack when it was really just an observation on the irony of your statement- you admitted you've got a few extra pounds, so what basis then do you have for putting the OP down for not being totally toned and bulked up?

Geez.
 redviking
Joined: 6/16/2005
Msg: 111 (view)
 
How muscular do you like your guys?
Posted: 6/22/2006 6:11:27 AM
Busty, yes. I don't mean that is the only factor or anything, but "ideal" to me is a full C or D. OF course there's way more to it- personality,intelligence, other physical features. BUt all else being equal...

Toned... nahh, I like women who look like women. Muscle definition on women tends to make them look a bit boyish and unfeminine to me. Don't get me wrong, I love a woman with enough muscle mass to be able to do some physical work for herself... not be fragile and dependent- but appearance-wise, firm yet soft and smooth is much more attractive than the "hardbody" or "knotty muscle" look.
 
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